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Comment by ntkachov | Hacker News Reader

How about a laptop with a better key board, slim figure, larger special character keys and more feedback for keys?

Then shove a great processor, a mouse pad that's not accidentally click able while typing, and a high resolution screen.

That's a developer laptop. Ill install my own software, Thank you very much.

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I agree that all your points are far more important than whatever image is pre-loaded.

At the very least a laptop designed for developers ought to keep the Insert/Home/PageUp + Delete/End/PageDown cluster in the normal formation, like Thinkpads do.

We are typists before we are programmers, and software is something we do have control over. Dell should be fretting over the things we don't have the ability to change on a lark.

At least they centered the touchpad and set the keyboard so I can touch type from a center position (no numeric keypad).

Lack of numpad is a matter of personal preference. I love it and use it almost exclusively, so lack of one is a big deal for me.

My problem with a numpad on a laptop is where I center myself. If you center on on the keyboard so you aren't typing "side-ways" then the numpad means you're head is tilted to center of screen or you're looking directly at the left of the screen.

Like thinkpads did... the ivy bridge models soon to be announced use a new layout. While the chicklet keyboards are largely an improvement (I've tried an E420 for a few moments and love the wider spacing), losing that row will take some getting used to.

I think I must be the only person out there that can't stand chiclet keyboards. One of the many reasons I'm interested in the upcoming Vizio thin+light notebooks is because they're not using chiclets.

Yes, the old-school ThinkPad keyboards were the best you could get on a laptop. Chiclet keyboards are made for non-touch typists, the kind of people who need to hunt and peck with big fat fingers. My fave keyboard is my Unicomp Linux model, with the Caps Lock and Ctrl keys swapped...but best of all, with positive keyclick and actual mechanical switches under each key instead of dopey, squishy foam like what you get with modern, cheap keyboards.

I thought this for a while as well, but I wouldn't put it past manufacturers to have done some comprehensive testing before just moving to island-style keyboards.

I prefer the thinkpad keyboards myself and use a mechanical keyboard on my desktop (one which I consider to have the best tactile feedback available: a Topre Realforce).

However, as a dvorak touch-typist I was curious to find out just how well different keyboards performed, so a while back I did a 1 minute random word test on each and got (approximately) the following results:

#1) Topre Realforce: ~110wpm random, ~140wpm non-random

#2) White macbook (island style): ~98wpm random , ~120wpm non-random

#3) Thinkpad T420: ~90wpm random, ~110wpm non-random

I used this site to do the comparisons: http://speedtest.10fastfingers.com/

Would be interested to see what other people get.

Realforce completely spoiled all the other keyboards for me. Totally worth the $400 pricetag.

if you don't mind having a 10-key you can get a realforce 103 for $235 from elite keyboards. The switches supposedly have a 30 million press lifecycle, significantly higher than most keyboards, so it should last many years.

I bought both an 87UB (the $400 one) and a 103UB, and kept the 103UB because I both prefer the feeling of it over the 87, and also discovered that I like having a 10-key again. Had pretty much abandoned them.

The 103 feels different, as far as keys go? I'm a bit surprised, I thought they were made exactly the same. What's the perceived difference?

well, for one the space bars are at different angles. the space bar on the 87 is a bit sharper and digs into your thumbs unless you use the feet to tilt the keyboard, which i prefer not using. secondly, though both keyboards use topre switches, the 87 is made by leopold for topre whereas the 103 is made by topre in japan ... the build quality on the 103 seems better and the keycaps on the 103 seem a bit more rounded and smooth.

...all purely subjective, of course, but i just prefer the typing experience on the 103 to the 87.

The last time I remember this discussed, I believe the main points in favor of chiclet keyboards were:

- looks stylish

- very cheap to manufacture

Obviously the manufacturers wouldn't switch arbitrarily, but I wouldn't be surprised if those two reasons alone weren't enough to drive the switch.

They also use less space (depth -- imagine a MacBook air with an old-style keyboard), probably weigh less and are much easier to keep clean.

I prefer them for that last point alone. Non-chiclet keyboards get filthy and are a nightmare to fully clean.

you are really super fast! I just got 80 WPM with mechanical keyboard (The Cheat CMA)

If you are in India and TVS Gold mechanical keyboard is also a very good keyboard. I have been using mine for past 6 years without a problem and I tend to bang on keys a bit harder than normal.

It's also cheap - Rs. 1500 ($30)

http://www.theitbazaar.com/store/components/com_virtuemart/s...

I just got 114wpm random on a ThinkPad T400 using a qwerty layout (note that all the keys I mention below assume a qwerty layout). I couldn't find a non-random option on that site. I prefer the feel of the MacBook-style keyboards, and I think I'm more accurate on them, but I don't have one in front of me right now to test my speed. I might be faster on a ThinkPad.

For me, one of the biggest factors in choosing a keyboard is if it has a right control key directly under the forward slash. I use the key to the left of the A (Caps Lock on my ThinkPad) as my left control key when a key chord involves a letter on the right hand side of the keyboard (e.g. C-u in qwerty), but I still use my right control key in chords whose letter is on the left side of the keyboard (e.g. C-a). I've considered trying to get used to using the left control key all the time to preserve my right pinky and to faciliate the adoption of new keyboards (e.g. MacBook), but I'm not there yet.

non random was done on gtypist.

I only recently figured out that my inability to easily use Vim was related to the fact that I'm not a touch-typist (not a hunt-and-pecker either). Good thing I'm just a hobbyist, wannabe programmer.

When I got my T61 after three plus years of using netbooks, my fingers were very happy to use that keyboard. After I got the ultranav set up, disabling the damn trackpad, I was a very happy camper, indeed. Years had passed since I'd retired my 770ED, and I'd forgotten just how good it was.

Sorry, I have to disagree about chiclet keyboards and I consider myself a keyboard Connoisseur and a touch typist. I own a couple of vintage IBM Model M keyboards, a Northgate, a Filco ... I've grown fond of the Apple Keyboards and my better halves and those who work around me thank me for it. Vim + Apple keyboard is coding heaven.

I do agree the ThinkPad keyboards were the best in its class.

Are all modern Apple keyboards pretty much the same? I've been considering the Apple wireless keyboard for my iPad, but I wasn't sure if it would offer a superior experience to the Microsoft wireless keyboard that I already have.

I love my my 2007 MacBook Pro with fingertip-complementary shaped keys. Typng on a chiclet hurts. Sadly battery number two is end of life and it seems silly to buy another one. It is nice at home though.

Oh dear. Was hoping you're wrong, but it seems you're right...at least for the X series. I'm still hoping that the T series will continue with a normal keyboard, especially since my T61 is near EOL for me.

That may be a requirement for developers who don't use Vim. I can't remember the last time I used any of those keys.

A Linux laptop should be a good laptop. But we should be aware that having Linux pre-installed does make a difference.

A) You'll either pay the Microsoft tax or have Linux pre-installed, possibly both depending how how deep MS' hooks are.

B) Having all the drivers work is important, especially modern laptops will often switch their peripheral chips without changing even model # so there.

Sigh. I wish more end users would consider option C:

Ask nicely for a laptop with no OS. When the reply is 'No', return/wipe the Microsoft default, carefully documenting your refusal of the End User License Agreement, and ask for your money back on the OS. (They'll still say 'No'.) Be firm, be persistent, and even go as far as issuing a Small Claim.

They will ultimately accede, because the law is on your side.

No one need pay the Microsoft tax.

Doesn't that mean you're paying the tax with your time instead?

Doesn't an OEM Windows license cost something like $20? It's certainly way less than a shrink wrap copy.

To me that sounds like a whole load of work for not that much money. If I don't want it I'd just order the cheapest most basic version of Windows I could, wipe it and move on.

This isn't really a matter of money for many people. It's a matter of ethics (or principle, if that's too strong of a word for your tastes).

I consider it highly anti-competitive to force people to buy an OS with their computer. It doesn't matter if you're a GNU/Linux person or simply already have a Windows license - it's forcing you to pay for something you don't want and don't need. And even if you want or need an OS with your computer (which many people, in fact, do), it should be an option[1], not forced upon you. As far as I'm concerned, this should be illegal by consumer protection laws.

In fact, there is a consumer protection directive in the EU that does just that - forbid unlawful bundling. It's just that no one knows and no one gives a shit, and here in Germany, there's a saying: "Wo kein Klaeger, da kein Richter." - "Where there's no complainant, there's no judge.". So, become a complainant. It's your good right, and those companies like Lenovo know it - that's why they make the process of getting a refund as arcane and customer-hostile as possible.[2] Most people will just bite it and silently pay the Windows tax, further fueling this vicious circle and the Microsoft monopoly.

[1]: For all I care OEMs can make it the default option, as long as I can choose "No OS" or "Preinstalled $distribution" - I don't care as long as I'm not forced to pay for something I ultimately won't use.

[2]: I had a slightly older (2008) mailing list post on (I think) Google Groups about refunds from Lenovo Germanu somewhere, but I seem to have lost the link. It included contact details for a guy at Lenovo Germany who apparently was responsible for granting refunds, but it took the author of the mail hours to get this information from the from the various hotlines.

That's what I did when I got my 17" HP Pavillion. I had it wiped and was installing Ubuntu within 20 minutes of unpacking. Later on down the road, I thought, "Hmmm I could really use at Windows 7 Home install for Visual Studio... maybe I should install it in a VM, after all, it would technically be running on the same hardware". So that's what I did. I called MS and used the COA sticker serial number on the bottom of my laptop. So weeks like this, where I'm doing plenty of C# development, I don't have to find another machine. That $20 OS comes in pretty handy.

On top of that, I will never consider switching away from my Macbook until the following things are true:

* battery will last several hours (macbook still at 4+ hrs on full charge and it is 1.5 yrs old)

* very good (open) acpi support - if I can't 100% trust closing and opening to just suspend and resume correctly, I won't use it for anything other than toy purposes. (and open because I will be using my own kernel, or at least my own install of a distro, so it needs to be supported or at least compilable for every kernel).

I'm using Ubunutu 12.04 (and learning to love the bomb, err, Unity) on a Samsung 15-inch Series 9, and those things you mention work fine. Small irritants include a screen of less quality than I expected (vertical viewing angle is minimal), a keyboard that is more noisy than I wish, and a touchpad that I can't get to disable during typing. But it's fast, quiet, large-screened and has more than enough horsepower for development (using it for Google App Engine work right now).

FWIW I've got the 13-inch Series 9 on Debian, and everything just works, including disabling the touchpad with a keystroke.

What I'd really like is to be able to disable touchpad clicks without disabling scrolling, but I understand if I'm on my own for that one.

I can disable touchpad clicks but not scrolling using synclient on my Thinkpad. In fact, I configured the whole thing to act as a scroll surface and nothing else.

You should look into syndaemon. This will disable the touchpad when you are typing. https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Touchpad_Synaptics#Disa...

Also, the screen on the Series 9 is one of the better screens out there. Also, I don't find the keyboard on my 13" loud though.

Thinkpad already has both problems solved. Getting 12-14 hours on my thinkpad T420 with a 9 cell and a power script written to make all the items found "bad" by powertop2 turn to "good". Switched from x220 (which was getting roughly the same battery life) because its 1366x768 screen wasn't quite enough for on-the-go work.

As for the lid opening and closing doing what it's supposed to, it does. Coincidentally, the ACPI also works flawlessly on my wife's 5 year old Japanese Toshiba laptop running Ubuntu 12.04 LTS.

Edit: here's a link to a thread in which I described the steps I took to get great battery life out of my thinkpad T420. May need tweaking for different thinkpad models, but I used it on my x220 as well with only minimal changes:

http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3562267

Do you have any more details on how to create such a script?

I have a T510 and despite the 80 watt hour battery I get only <4 hours of runtime.

edited my initial comment to include the information. HTH.

Is it possible to get powertop2 on Linux Mint? I can't even find a source download; their alleged source repo at git.moblin.org seems to be down. Going to that domain gives me a "502 Bad Gateway" error.

Edit: ah, "git clone git://git.moblin.org/powertop powertop2" works.

> (macbook still at 4+ hrs on full charge and it is 1.5 yrs old)

My MacBook Pro, mid-2009, original battery:

    Temperature = 2982
    CycleCount = 591
    DesignCycleCount9C = 1000
    DesignCapacity = 5450
    MaxCapacity = 4814
    WearRatio = 88%
    CurrentCapacity = 1514
    ChargeRatio = 31%
    Voltage = 11077
    Amperage = -694
    InstantAmperage = -661
    InstantTimeToEmpty = 2:17
    TimeRemaining = 2:11
    AvgTimeToEmpty = 2:11
    FullToEmptyTime = 6:56

(this is from a python script of mine [0])

Close to three years of daily, heavy use. The thing just doesn't want to die (crossing fingers).

[0] https://gist.github.com/2630561

Here are the stats from my MacBook Pro (also mid 2009, 13-inch, original battery):

  Temperature = 2990
  CycleCount = 488
  DesignCycleCount9C = 1000
  DesignCapacity = 5450
  MaxCapacity = 4804
  WearRatio = 88%
  CurrentCapacity = 4804
  ChargeRatio = 100%
  Voltage = 12568
  Amperage = 253
  InstantAmperage = 88
  TimeRemaining = 0:8
  AvgTimeToFull = 0:8

I seem to be missing the InstantTimeToEmpty and FullToEmptyTime data. Reading your script, that tells me the values are "None" but not why that is. I'm also apparently 8 minutes from an empty battery, even though it's fully charged. Do you know why this is?

Amperage is positive: you're charging. So:

- TimeToEmpty makes no sense.

- you're 8 minutes to full.

Doh! Thanks for the update.

Thinkpad (T60) has a great keyboard, good feedback. I don't use the mousepad, I like the little red pointer thingy it has and has 1400x1050 resolution display. It also a mate display (not the glare type).

It is bulkier than other laptops and by now its processor is behind the latest i7 and i5's.

Also as soon as I got I installed Ubuntu on it. Ubuntu lets me re-map caps lock to a control for my emacs usage.

And most of all this machine has worked great for many years . It has traveled with me, has been banged up, dropped, had hot liquids spilled on it and it still works.

Don't you get too much strain on your left pinky if you remap CapsLock to Ctrl?

I shifted to:

CapsLock -> Enter

Keys next to spacebar -> Ctrl

This feels a whole lot better. As Xah Lee [1] points out, the original symbolics keyboard that Stallman developed emacs on, had Ctrl keys next to the space bar.

[1] http://xahlee.org/emacs/emacs_kb_shortcuts_pain.html

I read Xah Lee's article a good while ago. Emacs is the program I spend >90% of my time in, I first encountered it on a SUN Sparc Classic. If my memory serves me right, the SUN keyboard had META close to space and CTRL under the TAB key (where PC keyboard have CAPS LOCK). So, naturally, I grew up with the control key in that position.

When using Emacs on a PC, for the longest time I didn't remap CTRL and with the default position Emacs becomes quite awkward to use. On a PC keyboard, I used to have pinkie strain a lot when doing lots of coding. But these days I spend most of my computing time in front of my Dell Netbook and the keyboard size is ideal for this key mapping - so nice, in fact, that I'm wondering whether there are any external netbook-sized keyboards that I could use with my desktop PC.

Another comment on this page complains about the arrangements of the HOME/END/INSERT/DELETE keys etc. on most laptop keyboards. I've got to say that I basically never use them. Even though the SUN Sparc keyboard had arrow keys, at some point I disabled them on my keyboard to force myself to learn Emacs' native shortcuts for moving the point. Now my hands hardly ever have to leave the home row.

I swap both CTRL and ALT keys and it makes life great. To type ALT I usually shift my whole hand, but that's okay, since I use CTRL 10x more often, at least.

I don't know about this whole CAPS LOCK thing... then you are stuck with only one key to hit, and I find it much better to press the modifier opposite the character key with my other hand, rather than scrunch up one hand.

Well, CAPS LOCK is just an additional CTRL for me.

What I really miss from the T60-era laptops is the 4:3 (non-widescreen) display. Widescreen is fine for watching movies, but a taller display can be really nice for reading, writing, and coding.

Yep. The T40 series had those too. I did a lot of programming on ThinkPads.

I actually like the widescreen displays for coding. I keep my line counts to 80 columns and now I can have two files side by side. Or a file open and a browser open side by side.

Couldn't agree more. I use a Thinkpad X60 for much the same reasons (X-series because I carry it around a lot, still "bulky" compared to a Macbook Air but not to the point that it ever actually bothers me.) I really don't look forward to having to upgrade it some day.

Aside from the screen feeling a bit outmoded to me (although I like matte, LCD tech has come a long way in 5 years) it's an absolute pleasure to use.

So I was disappointed when Dell's announcement was about Linux shovelware instead of just saying "easy modular upgrades, quality keyboard, portable and light but solidly built." :/

The UXGA IPS panels on some of the T60s are one of the nicest screens to spend all day looking at. New screens are often brighter, but the color and viewing angle found on those is far superior to what's available today. Oh, and they're 1200px tall - the 17" MBP is, I think the only major-brand laptop that tall today.

I have a T60 that I use as my primary laptop. They don't make laptops like this anymore.

I keep a spare T60 just in case this one breaks. They are pretty cheap on eBay, especially if supplies without HDD off-lease.

-sent from my T60

I've got a T61. It's widescreen but I kind of like that.

+1 for ebay. I can buy a new one for 100GBP if this packs in.

I went shopping a couple weeks ago for a MacBook Air to replace my 15" MBP as my primary development machine. (The endorsement a couple weeks before from Linus about the simplicity and silence of the Air sold me)

I picked it up at BestBuy and when I was there I glanced at their Ultrabooks display. They had 3. The Asus and Toshiba seemed complete crap. Flimsy. Trash.

The only one that seemed a plausible purchase was the Samsung. I wasn't a persuadable customer: I'm not going to switch my platform choice because of one credible alternative. But for those customers that are, I think it's fantastic that they at least have 1 credible windows 7 alternative to an Air.

(Not that it matters, but if you're interested, this MBP is a work-supplied machine and it's the first Mac I've ever used. My other PC is a sony vaio core 2 duo circa 2008 or so running Windows 7. I was very impressed with Windows 7 when it came out. But as an engineer it's only a credible option because I was running a Ubuntu VM. When I took my current job and had my choice of machine I finally took the plunge and I've loved it ever since. I still use Ubuntu VM's for sharing dev environments but having a fantastic terminal app and a clean experience is something I have no interest in giving up. Thus, i'm not a persuadable.)

Two questions:

1. Are you happy with the Air versus the MBP?

2. Seems a strange time to buy. Why not buy in six months time?

> 1. Are you happy with the Air versus the MBP?

Yes. Very. Largely due to portability but also because the Pro didn't have an SSD. The pro was about 18 months old so it had similar specs in other aspects but no SSD.

I wouldn't hate more RAM of course. But the SSD in here is anecdotally faster than an aftermarket SSD I installed in a windows machine last year and it definitely helps you overlook the 4GB limit.

> 2. Seems a strange time to buy. Why not buy in six months time?

I have a zen about these things. There will always be something right around the corner.

How about taller and higher-resolution screens while we're at it? 16:9 "HD" is fine for movies, but not exactly optimal for development. Right now the portable computer with the highest screen resolution is the iPad. I'm using a Thinkpad T61 because it's the only laptop I know of with a 4:3 screen that can take 8gb of memory.

es you are correct. We need 4:3 laptops. I hate these HD screens.

It looks like Dell has set up a "storm session" where they'll take our feedback/suggestions, here: http://www.ideastorm.com/Idea2SessionIdea?v=1336432210237...

> Then shove a great processor, a mouse pad that's not accidentally click able while typing, and a high resolution screen.

Agreed, although I don't consider the processor all that important. I run out of ram way before I can exhaust the CPU capabilities in the current generation of "ultrabooks". I want a 13" macbook air or something of similar build quality with a higher res screen and 8-16GB of ram.

I'm trying to bring this to market, first in the form of Thinkpads, but possibly other models too (including our own in the future). If anyone's interested, please sign up here - http://giniji.com

I own a XPS15z but I was never able to put what is wrong with it so succinctly.

I absolutely don't get what's with the pre-installed software thing, I can do that myself. What I need is full-driver support and some basic information of what is known to work. I don't expect them to maintain a full Linux compatibility list, but just a simple list that says: With this specific kernel and this mainstream distro, those things don't work out of the box. You need one intern for about two days to do that. Throw in exact specs and I can figure out a lot of things for myself.

You hit the nail on the head there. My ideal hacker laptop would have something like:

Realforce 87U keyboard

2x (yeah they do exist I think) 1920x1200 screens, perhaps with really high PPI like the new ones Apple is releasing soon.

No touchpad (I'm quite happy with plugging in a mouse), I'd rather use a nipple.

Light, lots of battery, no need for a fancy graphics card. Decent CPU, doesn't have to be extreme.

Tons of memory, 16gb at least, the more the better.

No software at all. I'll install my own distro.

What you are describing sounds like my 5 year-old HP DV9000. The keyboard & track-pad were surprisingly of very high quality, very close to that of Apple's IMO.

Too bad though the hardware & chasis design of the product line was extremely shoddy & defective; if the notebook didn't fry itself so often it probably would've been noticed more.

The DV9000s also had a terrible hinge design which was highly prone to breaking. The hinge itself would snap because it was made out of cheap pot metal and the 17" display put a lot of leverage on it. To make matters worse, the hinge secured directly to the bezel and top cover; when the hinge broke, it'd generally break both those parts as well. Even if you were to DIY the repair, you were looking at $150-200 in parts from HP.

Everybody is praising Apple keyboards here. Strange thing is at my work place many have a "real" keyboard beside their MBA or MB.

Why? Do they use it when the laptop is closed? Did they miss a numpad? Did all their keys pop off and the devices are out of warranty? Is it about the "click" feeling?

I haven't seen this so I am curious. The biggest bummer for me about Apple is the lack of a USB external trackpad.

Is this what you're looking for? http://www.apple.com/magictrackpad/

I think gurkendoktor is looking for a USB(wired) trackpad. The Magic Trackpad can only interface via Bluetooth.

Right. BT is annoying when changing operating systems or computers and batteries are bad for the environment and always run out at the wrong time. I went with the Magic Trackpad though.

I guess it is about the click feeling and proper position of the hands.

Speaking of frying itself, when mine got hot the keyboard stopped working reliably, and it got hot easily and often.

I will trade in most of that for just a matte screen. I read code all day and I like my terminal black. Most laptops nowadays function as mirrors instead of laptops.

Hands down the most important part of this comment is the touch pad. It's a real struggle to find a decent touch pad aside from you know who.

I still like the Thinkpad's trackpoint, and have the pad set to scroll-only.I can comfortably mouse and scroll without moving my hands from my typing position.

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