Comment by beefield | Hacker News Reader

Comment by beefield | Hacker News Reader

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This. Amartya Sen has claimed that two actual democracies have never been at war between each other. At least I find hard to find significant counterexamples in history. (Not sure about the Falkland war. And I think Finland was technically at war with UK in the second world war)

I think the democratic and developed countries need to change their game plan pretty soon. The countries that are willing to join the club should be offered actual help to develop. By actual help I mean trade treaties that are designed to benefit those countries, not developed countries. Includes IP vaiwers, duties that protect local industries etc.

The countries that do not want to join, (including China and Orban's Hungary) then again, should be punished in all ways possible. Massive duties to commodities and other products imported from those countries, as a starter.

Open democracies do not need to be nice guys if they are threatened. Must not be, to be more precise. See Popper and paradox of tolerance.

>Not sure about the Falkland war

Do you mean the war between Argentina and England? Argentina was not only under a military dictatorship then, but the war was definitely triggered by the military junta.

> This. Amartya Sen has claimed that two actual democracies have never been at war between each other. At least I find hard to find significant counterexamples in history.

Off the top of my head -- a war of 1812 between Great Britain and United States. Both countries were democracies at that time.

> […] a war of 1812 between Great Britain and United States. Both countries were democracies at that time.

By what definition the British Empire, a constitutional monarchy, had been a democracy in 1812 if all (and not just the fourty-shilling freeholders) men aged 21+ with some women aged 30+ only became allowed to vote in 1918, 106 years later, and all women aged 21+ were finally allowed to vote in 1928?

In 1812, both Britain and the US lacked universal suffrage - not only were all women excluded from voting, but in both countries, so were many men - so if lack of universal suffrage made 1812 Britain not a democracy, the United States wasn’t one either.

But, historically, democracy was not considered to require universal suffrage. Athens is often cited as one of the world’s first democracies - and it is from Ancient Greece that we get the word - yet in ancient Athens, most adults couldn’t vote (either due to being female, due to being slaves, or due to being non-citizen resident aliens)

In 1812, Britain was a constitutional monarchy with a parliamentary system dominated by landed aristocracy and gentry – 3% circa of the population, and it was exclusively males.

Members of Parliament (MP's) were often elected in rotten and pocket boroughs where a single patron could (and unashamedly did) buy up the votes in one or multiple boroughs and essentially dictate the outcome of elections. Charles Howard, 11th Duke of Norfolk controlled 11 boroughs, as an example.

The rotten boroughs were only disenfranchised by Reform Act 1832 which granted seats in the House of Commons to large cities instead.

In the pocket boroughs, the landowner could evict electors who did not vote for the two men he wanted, the practice that did not cease to exist until secret ballots were introduced in 1872.

There were also «open boroughs» where the vote was more competitive but still limited to male property owners only.

Since «demos» in «democracy» stand for «people», calling Britain a democracy in 1812 is not even a stretch.

> In 1812, Britain was a constitutional monarchy

And in 2024, it still is a constitutional monarchy - how is that relevant to the question of whether it is or was a democracy?

> Since «demos» in «democracy» stand for «people»,

The meaning of words isn’t determined by sum of parts like that. The people who coined the word “democracy” used it to refer to systems in which only a small percentage of “the people” counted. Herodotus used the word in the 5th century BCE, whereas universal adult suffrage didn’t exist in most places until the 20th century, well over 2000 years later. If you want to argue that everyone was using a word incorrectly for over 2000 years, well, you can define words however you like, but other people aren’t obliged to accept your novel definition

I am not following it. On the one hand, valid points have been made that I have a wholehearted agreement with, yet the next moment there seems to be the gish galloping going on. Or that is how I perceive it, anyway.

> In 1812, Britain was a constitutional monarchy […]

[…] a parliamentary system dominated by landed aristocracy and gentry – 3% circa of the population […]

That was the key point that was conveniently or otherwise omitted. 3% of the entire population being landed aristocracy and gentry is not the rule of people by any measurable account, and, no, it does not constitute the British Empire a democracy in 1812. There was also a reason why I originally emphasied «Empire» – empires do not place a focal point on the power of people as there are no people in an empire, there is only the empire.

> The meaning of words isn’t determined by sum of parts like that.

Yes, the modern defintion of «democracy» is multifaceted and elastic, it has evolved to mean much more since its inception, including universal suffrage as a fundamental property of a functional democracy today. Yet, democracy in Ancient Greece is not what most would call a democracy today. I am accutely aware of that.

> […] other people aren’t obliged to accept your novel definition

That is an opinion, and it is not that of mine.

> Orban's Hungary

This is a hard one since the guy managed to do his trick once Hungary already joined all clubs. On the other hand, there's little hope anybody can manage to overthrow him anytime soon, and in any case restoring democracy in Hungary will take decades.

Off the top of my head:

1. karabakh war (at least the first one)

2. six day war

3. turkey's invasion of cyprus

4. some yugoslav wars

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