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Comment by tgv | Hacker News Reader

I had that experience with a US mother company of a European subsidiary (of a subsidiary). CEO swings by, as he does once per year, and fires the whole dev team, including the local branch manager, because they'll take over in the US (they couldn't, and then bought a competitor instead; the original product is still running, 15 years later), and we were told to leave the building. I had a program building something for an unusual client project, but I had to close the laptop, and that was €60k down the drain, probably more if the project had been successful. Since then, I've avoid companies with US ties.

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I was laid off in Sweden by an American parent company and all work ended the second it happened. It was funny because they could have asked me to keep working, but I guess a paid vacation was nicer for me anyway.

Garden Leave (sometimes "Gardening Leave") is the technical term for this. You get paid, and they might insist on you not taking up any new job until the contract term ends, but they explicitly do not want you to do any work or come to the office or anything like that.

There's a parallel and equally wasteful but popular practice of insisting on taking on CxO employees of a purchased outfit for some prolonged period, perhaps as insurance, except that you've got no useful or interesting work for them to do. Unlike Garden Leave they're not fired - one of my friends was even told they could expect a substantial pay raise, but the job is now awful so their goal will be to wait only until as many options/ bonuses/ etc. as possible have irreversibly turned into hard money and then quit ASAP.

It's like OK, I could do something actually interesting next week or, I could sit in tedious meetings with idiots for 24 months, then pay off my mortgage, and retire immediately with $$$$$. Ugh.

If you know you'll be dead in a year, obviously the former is the right choice. But you probably won't be.

What country was this? If it was a European subsidiary, then would you have not have been subject to the employment protection of the country's laws?

Sure - in most EU countries, especially to the east, they get some additional money (usually 1-6 months of wages + unused vacation days). That's about it.

I don't know why people think it's not possible to fire people in the EU, but it is and it's a normal thing. It just costs some money.

It is possible, but if someone does whatthe parent described like that in Europe, you get more than that and you could walk out of there with your laptop and nobody would be able to stop you, and if they did, you'd probably get more than 6 months of wages.

There is a process to firing. EVEN in the US there is a process of firing. The big lie is that most people are fed, is that in "right to work" states you have no legal recourse. You do, but not if you take the severance and sign your leave papers, because you panic right away. Something I didn't know either in the US.

The most important rule my (senior) friend once told me is to document everything, especially when your bosses make you do something that you feel uncomfortable with. Print emails if you have to and put them in a folder that you might never have to open if you're lucky.

At will, right to work is union related.

The fact there is a process doesn't mean you get guaranteed access to building and infrastructures.

You are technically still employed and paid but the company can refuse to let you step inside or connect to the network. You also can't work for another company without their agreement until the grace period is over.

> I don't know why people think it's not possible to fire people in the EU, but it is and it's a normal thing. It just costs some money.

It varies across Europe as well. Some countries, like Sweden, have more protections than others (no matter if union member or not), as an example. You cannot fire someone unless they demonstrably neglect their work duties and the firing overall needs to be objectively justified. Then the notice period depends on how long you've worked there, and more conditions I surely can't remember right now.

Compared to Spain that has "disciplinary dismissal" for example, where "insubordination" or "lack of discipline" could be enough to get you fired.

For Sweden in addition to what's stated above, if the reason for being fired is downsizing of lack of work, the law for employment protection (LAS) also states that the people laid off have to be in the reverse order of their hiring. To the latest to be hired is the first to let go.

Exceptions can be made if justified, not dug into the details of how that works.

Insubordination is definitely grounds for termination in Sweden. One of the easiest and fastest ways to get your self fired.

Your boss tells you to unpack a crate, you say no, boss tells you "f*ck off and never come back". Perfectly fine legally and you don't get any severance pay either.

There is some nuanced to this, as you have the right to refuse unreasonable requests and you are allowed to have a bad day if you have a longish good record etc etc.

For a knowledge worker it is more difficult to define what a reasonable order is and what constitutes insubordination, but the basic rules are the same.

In the UK, you can be let go for essentially any reason (excluding protected statuses) for the first two years (first one year in Northern Ireland).

In many countries in Europe it is hard to fire individual worker who has permanent contract.

However, another story is when mass layoff is going on. For example in Poland group of 9+ workers can be fired without any real reason. Downsizing! With 3-6 month notice period, of course.

In these countries they usually don't hand out permanent contracts to anyone.

Sure, and they had to pay until the end of the contract plus compensation or offer other positions, but they can make you leave the building. It's theirs, after all. And foreign companies have it easier for certain claims, especially regarding finances and profitability, which is the main ground for rightful dismissal, so a lawyer told me.

No country will protect the right of the employee to finish his work before getting out of the company.

Depends a bit on specific laws for every country, but you usually have to go trough proper process and announcement, and follow special rules if you're firing a big quantity of employees. Musk skipped that in the massive Twitter layoffs and it bit him in the back (for example, when firing the whole Spanish staff [0]).

Simplified a lot, and in general conditions, on Spain:

  - You have to announce it at least 15 days before ( unless it's a disciplinary dismissal ) or pay for those 15 days of salary
  - Pay for any unused vacation days and pending salaries
  - An "objective reason" is needed for the firing [1]
  - If there's no proper "objective reason", you have to reinstate the worker or pay 33 days of salary per year worked by the user [2]
  - If the layoffs involve certain number or percentage of the workers, you have to go through certain legal process and get government authorization [3]

Twitter didn't go through the process in Spain, to avoid paying the stocm options that were going to vest very soon, but then the firings were declared illegal and they had to pay proper severance and for the stock options too... [4]

  0: (EN) https://www.theolivepress.es/spain-news/2022/11/10/elon-musks-email-late-on-friday-to-sack-his-spanish-workforce-declared-null-and-void-by-unions/
  1: (ES) https://www.laboralix.com/despido-objetivo/
  2: (ES) https://www.laboralix.com/despido-improcedente/
  3: (ES) https://www.laboralix.com/despido-colectivo/
  4: (ES) https://www.elconfidencial.com/tecnologia/2023-01-24/twitter-confirma-el-despido-del-80-de-su-plantilla-en-espana_3563189/

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