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Comment by alephnerd | Hacker News Reader

The student body is also much stronger academically in 2023 compared to 2013 looking at HS GPA and ACT scores alone.

Ime, in 2010-2013, it wasn't that difficult to get admitted into UC Berkeley or UCLA or an Ivy League if you were in the top 25% of your class, but by 2015-2019 it shrank to the top 1-5%.

This had a downstream effect on admissions for other UCs and CSUs as well, as everyone ended up joining their backup/safety school.

The student base became much more rigorous at lower tier UCs, but grading practices haven't changed in 10 years, especially given the fact that most UCs excluding UCB don't grade on a bell curve.

A program like UC Riverside is now much more competitive in 2023 than it was in 2013.

2013 -https://ir.ucr.edu/sites/default/files/2019-03/CDS-2013-14.p...

2019 - https://admission.universityofcalifornia.edu/campuses-majors...

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The longer there are standardized classes like ap and standardized tests, the better the gpa will be in future years. This is because programs and extracurriculars continue to optimize for these things. Programs and extracurriculars that don’t exist in college. Is the student from 2023 actually more prepared than the one from 2013 for college? Hard to say because this isn’t exactly what is being optimized or controlled for. Nor is it even clear whether being “prepared for college” by whatever metric that is at 17 is relevant to your academic performance in the next few years or job performance going forward.

> there are standardized classes like ap and standardized tests, the better the gpa will be in future years

Of course, and this is the point - it had made college freshman more college ready.

AP Coursework is equivalent to the content taught in the 101 course of just about every UC or CC. Doesn't matter if it's AP Chem/Chem101, AP Calc ABC/Calc1-2, AP US History/US101, etc.

The fact that it has become normalized for high schoolers to take first-year level coursework in high school points to younger high schoolers cohorts being better prepared for 4 year programs compared to older cohorts.

> the student from 2023 actually more prepared than the one from 2013 for college

There is a direct correlation between High School performance and College performance [0][1].

And UCs do take into account high school level variability [2]

[0] - https://ies.ed.gov/ncee/rel/Products/Region/northwest/Public...

[1] - https://consortium.uchicago.edu/publications/high-school-GPA...

[2] - https://admission.universityofcalifornia.edu/how-to-apply/ap...

People are optimizing for the wrong things. They take these and get credit for their first year classes that would have probably been not so difficult anyhow. Then they get destroyed in the next stage, for my major it was organic chemistry that handed the 50% marks like candy and there was nothing a high school could offer you to prepare for that. How could they even, nothing they offer demands you spend 20 hours a week outside of class scribbling reactions like a mad man in a cold library basement, but thats literally what needs to happen to do well. Its a total whiplash but even this is still removed from learning how to actually work in the field, experience you can’t really get unless you can get a professor to let you work under them. Who goes on to the next stage with ease is now who lucked out here during the slog and got some extra experience from time they could afford to lose.

> They take these and get credit for their first year classes that would have probably been not so difficult anyhow

You need to take the AP Exam and score a 5 to get full credit for these classes at the college level.

If you did not a score a 5 on the AP Exam, you aren't getting out of the intro class at the UC or occasionally CSU level.

> the 50% marks like candy

I don't think you're American based on that statement alone. It sounds Indian or British - especially because in the US a D- is 60%, a C- is 70%, and so on, and we don't use the word "marks", and you need a C- average to graduate from a UC.

> even this is still removed from learning how to actually work in the field, experience you can’t really get unless you can get a professor to let you work under them

Idk about where you are in the Commonwealth, but internships have been normalized in the US since the 2010s.

Almost everyone in a decent program (aka every UC - even Merced) can land an internship or research experience after finishing lower div requirements

> If you did not a score a 5 on the AP Exam, you aren't getting out of the intro class at the UC or occasionally CSU level.

At some UCs, and in some subjects, you can get more credit for a 5, but in some subjects you get full credit for a 3, even at Berkeley. It depends on whether the test is relevant to the main topic of your university studies, or tangential to them. A 3, 4, or 5 on either AP Calculus exam will get you entirely out of having to study math at Berkeley in the College of Letters and Sciences.

> but in some subjects you get full credit for a 3

Fair point!

That said, you get full credit but it won't exempt you from major related coursework in most cases. Circa a few years ago, I think AP Lit had the best RoI for AP Class to Cal Class Credit as they took you out of the intro writing classes in LAS.

> A 3, 4, or 5 on either AP Calculus exam will get you entirely out of having to study math at Berkeley in the College of Letters and Sciences.

Quant Reasoning/Math1a (intro calc) yes, but you'd still need to take Math1b/53/54/55 depending on your major in L&S.

If you're an English major it probably doesn't make sense to do anything beyond 1a, but if you're a STEM major then 53/54/55 are de facto requirements and they will require 1b.

Every other AP required a 4 minimum at Cal

> it was organic chemistry that handed the 50% marks like candy and there was nothing a high school could offer you to prepare for that.

My high school was definitely far from typical, but it did have an Intro to Organic Chemistry that did provide some extra practice for the gruntwork of organic chemistry (especially organic nomenclature).

The most I’ve seen thats typically offered at the highschool level is taking community college classes that your eventual actual college would transfer over. That being said community colleges are significantly easier than normal colleges. Our math and chem department would specifically advise people to get certain classes done at the local cc and transfer the credit if they were at risk to not pass these classes at the main college. Cheaper per credit hour too.

> The student body is also much stronger academically in 2023 compared to 2013 looking at HS GPA and ACT scores alone.

ACT scores have been falling since at least 2017 but possibly earlier [0]. GPAs in the US have gone up because of grade inflation (in large part due to NCLB and schools being rewarded for passing more students). In many schools 50% is now the lowest score you can receive (even for work not submitted).

> Ime, in 2010-2013, it wasn't that difficult to get admitted into UC Berkeley or UCLA or an Ivy League if you were in the top 25% of your class, but by 2015-2019 it shrank to the top 1-5%.

Nowhere but an elite prep school would the top 25% of the class be admitted to an Ivy. Even 5% would be a very good school, not typical.

[0] https://prepmaven.com/blog/test-prep/average-act-scores/

Could there be grade inflation in HS grades (likely) or ACTs (maybe)?

> grade inflation in HS grades (likely)

Unlikely, as grade inflation would imply less need to take AP Classes, but proportion of students who have taken AP classes and tests has risen from 2013 [0] to 2021 [1].

Also, GPA is based on UC HS A-G classes, which are regulated at the state level.

> ACTs (maybe)

Unlikely, it's the same damn test (source: took it in the early 2010s, and helped prep family friends in 2021-22).

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The main difference is California had a baby boom in the 1990s-early 2000s due to tech and immigration from Asia+Latin America [2][3].

In the 2009-11 period you wouldn't see portable trailer classrooms in top Californian HSes, but by 2011-15 they were everywhere, as the 1995-2005 cohort began entering middle and high school.

By 2020-21, the glut was largely over, and Californian school districts began shutting down elementary schools due to low attendance.

California in 1990, 2000, 2010, and 2021 had a TFR of 2.5, 2.0, 1.95, and 1.5 respectively.

[0] - https://www.dailynews.com/2013/02/20/numbers-taking-passing-...

[1] - https://reports.collegeboard.org/ap-program-results/class-of...

[2] - https://www.nytimes.com/2001/04/02/national/population-growt...

[3] - https://calmatters.org/commentary/2019/01/california-sees-sl...

Why would grade inflation imply less need to take AP classes? That doesn't follow at all. AP tests offer a chance to get college credits early, and many colleges provide preferential status to students with a number of AP classes. The incentives for taking them remain whether classes are easier or not.

> Why would grade inflation imply less need to take AP classes

AP Classes act as a GPA and Admissions booster in UC admissions.

The traditional scale is 0-4, but if you take AP Classes, your GPA can be modified to a 0-5 scale as long as you pass the exam and/or maintain at least a B average in the class.

Anyone with a GPA >4.0 means they took at least 2-3 APs with an A-B average along with an A average in general classes.

The fact that the 75th percentile HS GPA at UCR in 2019 is 4.11 compared to it being in the mid 3s in 2012 implies that the student body has changed.

In 2010-13 you could get accepted in UCR without having ever taken an AP course - that doesn't happen anymore since 2019 onwards.

Heck, in the 2019 freshman class 32% of incoming freshman had a 4.0 GPA (aka straight As) [0]. Education standards in CA at the high school level didn't change between 2012 and 2019, nor was there remote education.

Even bottom tier UC admissions have become extremely competitive nowadays, and any parent or current student can attest to that.

Most HNers seem to have finished HS around the early 2010s at the latest based on the kind of commentary I've seen on here, so I think they don't have experience with how much more impacted admissions in UCs have become since 2018-19.

[0] - https://ir.ucr.edu/sites/default/files/2022-05/cds_2019-2020...

> The fact that the 75th percentile HS GPA at UCR in 2019 is 4.11 compared to it being in the mid 3s in 2012 implies that the student body has changed.

Or it implies that grades are inflated, including the grades for AP classes. Not sure why you think that such grade inflation is impossible.

Grade inflation makes people more likely to take AP tests. Grade inflation makes grades a less reliable indicator of ability, which means students need extrinsic measures (standardized tests) to demonstrate this.

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