Hacker News Reader

Comment by coldcode | Hacker News Reader

But they do own their own kitchen. I thought of moving to Berlin (from US) at one time, but the idea of an apartment not having a built-in kitchen is insane. Apparently, it is very common for the apartment to have an empty kitchen with nothing but hookups, and when you leave, you either take the kitchen you put in with you or sell it to the next renter.

View on HN

Oh god 'selling the kitchen' in Germany gives me a massive PTSD. New tenant can straight out lie to you about intent to buy the bloody kitchen and ignore you after they move in. Congrats, you furnished someone's kitchen free of charge. Still, this doesn't stop the landlord from selling the kitchen over and over again to every new uninformed tenant. That's why everyone ends up saying 'just take the bloody kitchen with you' and so the vicious retarded circle continues.

Or the landlord counts it in the rent price and basta. I would have thought this was the simpler solution, how it shows I'm not German.

Landlord has no interest in deescalating the situation. Landlord will happily charge you for removal of the kitchen, without actually removing it. They'll even print the receipt for you, no problem it's one click in their fraudulent real estate management system. Then they will sell the kitchen to the next tenant.

This wouldn't fly in Switzerland, and I think also not in Germany.

Desirable cities fly under the radar. If you don't sign, by the end of the day someone else will.

At lot of things fly in Germany when it comes to basic human necessities that are in short supply, like a roof over your head.

If it meant I had more security than the 2 month notice period I have in the uk renting, I’d be completely fine. Would be nice to have my own appliance to take with me (or sell on)

They often also don't come with ceiling lamps! Don't know how uncommon this is everywhere else, but my first evening in my German apartment was spent with mobile phone light :)

Yeah, this is very common but also quite insane. It's okay if you don't move often, but it really doesn't make any sense.

I'm not sure it's as nonsensical as it once was. Here in the US, the quality of mass-market kitchen appliances has declined sharply over the past 15-20 years, and really high-quality units have a respectable price tag. It's increasingly common for home sellers to keep their higher-quality appliances to take with them, and swap them out with mediocre baseline models.

I'm in the process of purchasing a house, where the seller swapped out the fridge between the initial listing and my offer. The dishwasher needs replacement post-purchase, and I'm planning to purchase a high-end one, and my thinking is to do the same thing with it should I move within the next few years.

Taking this situation to its logical conclusion, it would make much more sense for both parties to just install their own appliances, rather than to have to bundle the house with what are essentially cheapest-tier placeholders.

Some of the appliances are custom to the house. I found out that only one refrigerator model in the states would fit in my townhome kitchen...since the door needs zero clearance. My dream is to reno the kitchen with build-ins (and at least an in counter induction stove), but that would make the appliance problem even more tricky.

That which you rent space within a self-supporting structure.

Another example may be clearer: The walls are necessary for the building itself to stand and survive the winter, but the paint or wallpaper are not. They're only necessary for the tenant, the house would stand securely without any wallpaper.

You obviously want cupboards and a kitchen bench, but they don't matter for the building or the safety of the other tenants.

Don't know where this comes from, maybe a bit more common than elsewhere but being very active in the leasing market here out of 30-50 homes maybe 10% have a missing kitchen. It's a big minus, usually cheapens the lease substantially, trust me no one wants to put down 10k€ for this. Maybe it was more common a few decades ago.

It depends. In many flats the kitchen is part of the flat, in some it isn't. We have lived in both - I grew up in one where the kitchen was part of the flat and in the last flat we lived in the kitchen was not part of the flat, astonishingly the kitchen of our neighbours was part of the flat.

Usually old flats ("Altbauwohnung") and flats for rich people (they want their own designer stuff) don't have the kitchen included. Other flats have, especially for people with mid or low income.

Also when the flat is owned by a cooperative ("Genossenschaft") or state owned association ("Wohnungsbaugesellschaft") as many flats in Germany are.

If the kitchen is not part of the flat and you move out, some owners will make you remove the kitchen, some won't. In the second case the new renter usually pays for the kitchen ("Abstandszahlung") to own it.

Like the cabinets and whatnot? Wouldn't they be fitted to the space available or are the kitchen spaces standardized?

Yes the cabinets and no, nothing ever fits perfectly.

Explain this to Germans.

I'm not sure how it is in Germany but usually kitchen modules are 60x60cm and 60x45cm. Post-war kitchens are designed to this modules.

Except kitchen walls and ceilings are rarely equally straight, vertical, or horizontal. Then the kitchen worktops... a topic for a separate novel.

Cabinets are standard usually, but the panels they conform to, decor, even the wall space available are not. Like I can dismantle the kitchen from my parent's apartment and it will break in some separate sections, but not all will break, for example horizontal panels won't. And If I will try to put it together in the rental apartment, most likely it won't fit on one side, and likely leave empty space on the other side etc. The sink part in built in the corner, if rental apartment doesn't have water pipes in the corner, then it won't fit. Same with dishwasher module, oven module etc.

I guess only if the kitchen is designed from the start in the cheapest possible way, with everything separate and squarish, with zero protruding or nonsquare shapes, then maybe it can be rearranged to the next apartment. Honestly, this idea is mind blowing every time I read about it.

Yeah, of course it doesn't line up completely but I simply have a ~15cm gap at the wall next to the window. Some people get a matching top plate and some boards to make it fit snugly but I've seen just as many kitchens that don't run wall to wall. I mean, we stash a small ladder and a folding chair there, it's not terrible.

Wait until you hear about the Netherlands and doing their own floors. I (German) was absolutely flabbergasted when I looked at apartments and almost none of them had floors in them. At least kitchens make sense. You configure it once to your needs, and then take it around from place to place until you eventually end up in a house, still with your specifically configured nice kitchen.

>and then take it around from place to place until you eventually end up in a house

That's sounds insane. How does that even work?

For one, kitchens are bespoke to order to each apartment, because the apartments are sized and spaced differently so the chance of the kitchen of one apartment fitting just right in your next apartment is super slim.

And two, how do you do the logistics of moving the kitchen? There's certainly a significant expense of time and money disassembling everything (especially stuff that's glued and bolted to the walls), packaging it, then carrying it by van or freight, then reassembling it again (assuming it just fits and you don't need further investments to make it fit).

How do you account for all these costs? Tell me how renting is cheaper again than owning.

>until you eventually end up in a house

If most Germans would end up in a house they wouldn't still be renting.

"apartment is super slim."

I moved with kitchens in Germany. German kitchens are also differnt from kitchens e.g. in the US.

I thought taking the kitchen with you was only a German thing. Here you get a working kitchen (aka devices and cupboards and working board) where you move - you might hate it of course but you will definitely have one.

My parents bought their kitchen in the 70s or 80s, had it in a flat, then another flat, then in a house, then in a flat again. For the first 30 or so years just buying additional pieces, then downsizing again. It might be slightly insane but it was from an apparently more upscale and stable brand and still looks good.

My kitchen is 13y old and I see zero reason to change the front panels either.

In theory in the US the house is just the structure. Appliances (stove, refrigerator, dishwasher, clothes washer, clothes dryer), window shades, light bulbs, toilet paper are not part of the sale and you can bring them with. If you don't remove your light bulbs technically the buyer can bring you to court for leaving your trash behind. I have never heard of someone taking their light bulbs when moving. Typically kitchen appliances are included in the house sale, but not always. Often laundry appliances are included too, but often not (in many cases the seller will then sell them to the buyer as a separate sale).

Moving all the above things is possible, but a lot of work for little gain.

No flooring is absolutely the case in Germany as well, e.g. bare concrete. Seen it in multiple apartment viewings.

It is insane. I think Germans are slowly getting behind that.

Bitte Abstand halten und zurückbleiben.

Hier gibt es nichts zu sehen.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com