Juvenile great apes love to tease and annoy their elders, study finds
theguardian.com
theguardian.com
Then when they grow up to be teenagers, they live in a cave and communicate mostly through grunting. I am at this phase with my children and I make inhumane efforts not to react and let it flow.
I hope that when their brain actually fires up when they are 25 or 30, they will be nice kids who realize what their parents when through to raise them.
Please comment only to confirm this, I am desperate.
The context of the social group may also have instilled poor social habits in both the juveniles and the elders.
When the elders have gathered enough simple experiences to understand these factors clearly instead of simply seeing the juveniles as being unquestionably destined for greatness in Learning and Civilisation, it is likely that a real social bond can be formed.
Improved communication and gestures of mutual caring have often been observed subsequently.
(Also, I bet your teens would agree that your efforts are "inhumane")
It comes from the same place "scientific" racism did. It's an excuse to not even bother trying because "muh hormones".
Adult initiation rituals tend to be 13-14 in every pre-industrial society (current and historic) because that's when it happens biologically; it is therefore not a surprise, in Western countries where it's delayed by a decade, that the people from 14-25 are not developing correctly.
The first step to fixing this is to acknowledge the problem exists.
I don't know how to define 'correctly' here, but in politically and economically advanced countries they develop in much more healthy and productive ways. People who are forced to be adults at 15 often never get a chance to mature.
It might be unique to our era (of capitalism), but its definitely true that even if those teenagers appear to be polite, you must remember yourself what it was like to be a teenager, how frustrated and angry and anxious you were all the time, how little you really knew about the world, even if you were nice in public. I don't think those basic impressions you get are definitive.
The operation of such societies should be regarded as an optimization for current circumstances rather than an optimal strategy. If you think what we are doing is poorly suited you are going to have to justify that position on its own merits.
They learn how to not upset Adults (and how to effectively upset them too), how to be pleasing, how to stay out of trouble, how to utterly lie and not get caught. Teens are advanced children in this respect.
Now you might think you are too smart to be fooled, and that of course is your downfall (didn't you read in school about hubris and arrogance?). The kids are humans, it is very high stakes for them and they study and hone every technique. For them it is their most productive skill. You are massivly outgunned. Adult.
You might think you are good-willed and trustworthy, but you are inescapably an Adult. You have that unchecked power and have been corrupted by it. Even if you are truly a friend now you can switch on that power in a moment if something bothers you, at your whim, by your mood. It's like petting an unrestrained lion; no matter how calm and playful it seems, licking you, nuzzling you, purring ... you are paying very close attention and tailoring every move to its pleasure. What if something scares it?
I work to maintain great empathy for children's position (hard to do, because I am corrupted by unchecked power). When interacting, I keep my mouth shut - a whispered syllable dominates the conversation, even if to provoke resistance. I listen attentively: are they speaking with their own voice, for their own cause, of their own perspective? A good signal is if it's too pleasing, if it fits so beautifully and joyfully in my beliefs, relieving all tension - here is a child who understands! Lol. Other people, especially with the vastly different experience of a different generation and of childhood, will have very different ideas and perspectives, many hard to understand or uncomfortable. Just think what you sound like to them.
When kids do that pleasing thing, what response do you see? You see Adults compliment them - 'what fine children!' The Adults are suckers, and if you think back to your teenage years, you know it. Adults are so easy.
There's another issue here. I was once at a casual Adult dinner party and a couple had brought their only child, a 13 year old. The child, as far as I could tell, was the Adults' best friend and they said as much. I tried engaging the child away from their parents and give them some space to be themselves, to be valued as themselves. They said they wanted to be there, with Adults (lol), because 'who wants to hang out with 13 year olds?' So truly heartbreaking.
It's also "point of reference" - kids more isolated from other kids will latch onto adults as their "reference people" they compare themselves to and model behaviours from while kids more socialised with kids will reference more onto near peers.
Isolated kids are commonly more intellectually precocious but less directly practical and (naturally) tend to have a bit more trouble connecting with peers. It's not unusual.
Their brain fires up at about 14, and soon starts to figure out that life is actually a costume party, so they spend the next decade in their cave pondering about it while making up their costume, naturally grunting at you while you annoy them with your mundane down-to-earth already-costumed person considerations. Then at 25 or 30 their costume is ready and they start playing with you childishly again.
"I was ashamed of myself when I realized life was a costume party, and I attended with my real face." (Kafka)
"Parents who expect gratitude from their children (there are even some who require it) are like those usurers who willingly risk the capital to receive interest." (Kafka)
But, I meant that in the abstract sense of displaying a bent or filtered version of myself. Sometimes the ping-pong thoughts can't be allowed to all come out at once so my external presentation certainly fits some point in the range of my usual expressions, but may not totally accurately represent my internal state.
OP I am still a parent of 2 toddlers but I came to realise at almost 35 that I was an asshole to my parebts for a long part of my life. It is one of my biggest personal shames. On the other hand I believe such break up is needed to be willing to brave the world independently. We are one weird species, is my conclusion.
Two years ago, I helped my mother die (I was then still thirty-something, she was sixty).
In such vulnerable situations, the honesty between our coupling (dying mother to mortal son) left us in a constant stream of mostly-happy tears.
Hearing your mother, on her months-away deathbed, describe you as "a bully, absolutely; sometimes even an asshole. But I love that you mostly bullied assholes, even your most-difficult brother (you could always humiliate him when he NEEDED it) and even me, sometimes, when I was acting out."
RIP, Mom; I miss You immensely, even these two years later, but am so glad we were able to lessen the guilt and share in being human.
>We are one weird species, is my conclusion.
Wishing you well in your futures.
I read this in the voice of Douglas Adams.
For me it's exactly the opposite. When I was a teenager I was always afraid and deferential of my parents, now I can't help but see them as narcisistic and abusive.
A special shout out to Instagram and Tik Tok for the miserable cherry on top. I hope those platforms implode before the next child becomes a teen.
My wife and I never had much anger towards our parents, but whatever was there totally dissipated when we had our first child.
I wonder if many millennials will never get that realization, after having kids a decade later in life than their parents did. We had our daughter in our mid-late 20s, as we were finishing law school. By the time we had our boys 6 and 8 years later, we had a house, we’re established in our careers, etc. The parenting experience later in life was very different, and much easier—aside from less physical stamina—than it was earlier in life.
Less than 2 teases per hour! I wish some juvenile homo sapiens I know were that well behaved.
I remember when I was younger, and I did that, but because I was their third child they were kind of already annoyed, so my parents' reaction was immediate and usually quite shouty.
I do find it adorable seeing these juveniles annoy the elderly.
Sometimes, adults deny this truth to their own detriment because they’re “smart” or “civilized”.
The optimal strategy is signaling alliance (to receptive partners); after that, it’s reciprocating behavior.
Teenagers (and many adults) aren’t willing to ally, so we’re left with reciprocating. Until they accept being allies is a good idea.
It is a mistake to try to translate that to using a tit for tat strategy in general, where the rules and payouts are usually quite different.
What game is being played? What are the rewards for winning?
Will apply this at workplace.
Sigh.
Little shits.
It’s the simple things like ape genes, and having basic needs met.
I kind of feel like it’s all this little stuff that bubbles up. Like keeping inflammation low in general.
Humans are great apes.