It's constantly bothering me to the point that I set a background with a black area at the top so that it blends with the menubar. I don't have a problem with the menubar icons though because I keep that tidy and minimal.
I punt on the issue through clamshell mode most of the time though.
To each their own, and TBH I have worse pet peeves.
This way you don't have to feel like there's wasted space.
Would anyone be willing to go to an older laptop without it?
Assuming not, what are the options? External displays?
I find I usually look at the content on the screen not the webcam or the notch, but it could be different for others
Yes, I did.
I do use external screens a lot tho (in addition to the built in one).
Like seriously, why is it so dang big?! I could understand a little cutout for the camera, but it's not like there's a faceid scanner array in there. It's just a dang camera. They could've stuck the ambient light sensor anywhere else.
When using the laptop in a dark environment, it was also prone to a feedback loop where the screen dimming would result in less light hitting the sensor, leading to further screen dimming, or runaway brightening. Putting the sensor facing outward from the plane of the screen minimizes that feedback.
I think this is a minority opinion.
I personally don't remark the notch anymore.
Another solution that would have been cool and expensive: if they put a camera in each corner of the screen. Then at least they could have the rounded corners they always wanted. Also four cameras could be used for cool 3d effects and AI to keep your eyes looking at the center of the screen.
Nvidia has been doing the eyes with a single generic camera for over a year now: https://www.nvidia.com/en-us/geforce/news/jan-2023-nvidia-br...
It would significantly increase the screen bezels because instead of just one notch you now have to bring in all four edges to accomodate the cameras.
Few will realize how Apple milked you twice - once to accept the horrible design (that they created), and again to accept how wonderful they are for eliminating the problem.
Compare phones, where manufacturers have actually created a narrative that camera cutouts are a desirable feature. Maybe people who bought new phones because they like the cutout design are getting milked twice.
https://www.google.com/search?q=apple+incremental+innovation
The MacBook notch is a clever design that increases the size of the screen without increasing the size of the overall case. There are some, relatively minor, downsides.
1. Some applications have an unusual number of menu items. The system takes this into account and renders those menu items to the right of the notch. In many cases, those are the less often used menu items “Window” and “Help” so the impact is lower.
2. When there are large numbers of app icons in the menubar, they may not all fit and some are truncated. This has always been a problem with that feature and many people have solved this by using utilities such as Bartender that hide extra app icons and move them to secondary panels.
3. There is an additional visual element on the screen. Many people quickly learn to ignore the notch and soon forget that it is there. For those who are bothered by it, there are a couple of simple ways to reduce the visibility of it. One method is to change the resolution of the screen so that all content appears below the notch. The downside of that solution is that there is less screen area. Another method is to use a utility to turn the menubar black. This makes the notch blend into the menubar so that it is much less visible.
The notch is not bad design: it is a design compromise. In reality the presence of the notch increases the overall screen space with the reduced bezel. That electronics wizardry and physics do not currently permit under-screen high definition cameras means that you need bezel space for it. That Apple managed to get it to be ~35mm x ~9mm is impressive. On every other laptop in the world with a webcam at the top, that ~9mm is required forehead on the laptop, meaning at least a ~9mm bezel.
And Apple is not rushing to replace this. After all, we've had three generations of Apple laptops released with the notch. Sure, if/when they prove they can do a quality under-screen camera, they will update this (after they update the iPhone family). But calling this "bad design" is suggesting that you could do better.
I can do one better. Don't buy it! Ta-da! Notch gone from your life and you can be happy again.
Consider that you are wrong and are not adept to designing products when compromises need to be made.
In the kindest way possible, consider that you may have OCD or similar. Like others have said, we haven't noticed or thought about this once in years of using it all day everyday. Preferring worse function (read: less display) over form (read: no notch) is not the galaxy brain you think it is.
Sorry dude, I'm having a real tough time taking your pro-notch argument seriously. Lets agree to disagree here. I'm tapping out.
I do notice it with my current background, but it doesn't bother me.
Removing the notch (by removing the webcam) is not an option that most people are interested in. Removing the notch by putting a forehead (and therefore shrinking total available screen space) is not an option that most people are interested in. What is your design brilliance for a relatively lightweight 14" laptop with minimal bezels and a high quality web camera in the centre of the screen?
You don't have one, because you have convinced yourself that anyone who disagrees with you "likes" the notch.
Literally everyone who has said that you're wrong has said some variation of:
1. Haven't really noticed it in X time using it 2. It doesn't bother me, because I have more screen space for the main windows, and the menu / task icons are now in space that wasn't available before 3. It's not a selling point for the laptop, but neither is it a disaster, and it's barely noticeable.
You have called it bad design. Pretty much everyone who has responded to your repetitive message has said "it's a compromise". Bad design is anti-human. This isn't anti-human, it's a compromise.
Statistically, no one is going to immediately buy a new version of a MacBook that does not have the notch just because it does not have the notch. They will do so because it offers a substantial boost over their current configuration (speed, RAM, display space, storage), and they may not even notice that there's not a notch anymore…unless they have used tools like Bartender or Hand Mirror that can take advantage of your cursor being under the notch to trigger useful functionality.
If you actually had a useful suggestion, I’m sure that Apple would love to hear from you (I’ll bet they've tried a lot of ideas that you have had and many more you haven't; they're not perfect, but they are really good at design experimentation and industrial processes). Until then, you’re just another Abe Simpson complaining about things on the Internet.
I routinely jump between different devices with and without notches. The notched devices continue to highlight the flawed UX each time. For people who unconditionally love Apple (quite a few on HN) or don't care either way, its not a problem.
>You have called it bad design. Pretty much everyone who has responded to your repetitive message has said "it's a compromise".
Its true, 10 people on an online forum disagreed with me.
>Bad design is anti-human.
Anti-human? You've lost me sorry.
>Statistically, no one is going to immediately buy a new version of a MacBook that does not have the notch just because it does not have the notch. They will do so because it offers a substantial boost over their current configuration (speed, RAM, display space, storage), and they may not even notice that there's not a notch anymore…unless they have used tools like Bartender or Hand Mirror that can take advantage of your cursor being under the notch to trigger useful functionality.
Yes, I agree and said so. Its not enough of an irritant to disqualify the purchase.
> I’m sure that Apple would love to hear from you (I’ll bet they've tried a lot of ideas that you have had and many more you haven't; they're not perfect, but they are really good at design experimentation and industrial processes). Until then, you’re just another Abe Simpson complaining about things on the Internet.
Apple doesn't want to hear from me because they already know the notch is ridiculous. They're working on removing it, they have stated all but publicly - because Apple never acknowledges their flaws unless they are sued.
If you were to look at any other forum, the comments seem about 10:1 for people who are not bothered by the notch. The other people who are not coming onto a forum to complain seem to not be bothered enough to post about it.
> Apple doesn't want to hear from me because they already know the notch is ridiculous. They're working on removing it, they have stated all but publicly - because Apple never acknowledges their flaws unless they are sued.
It may bug you so much that you call it “ridiculous” but most of us recognize that it is a compromise between conflicting constraints and the downsides are minor. Certainly Apple would like to resolve that compromise with fewer downsides, but to do so requires them developing the tech to put those components under the screen. That doesn’t exist yet without bringing in new compromises. Just like on the phone, once they can hide those components they will. In the meantime, we can either continue to get worked up about it or relax and get on with our work.
The notch is an improvement over the old thick bezel design. Presumably they'll find an even better solution down the road. When they do, I'm not going to complain that they didn't jump forward to the currently nonexistent technology on the first iteration.
https://www.patentlyapple.com/2023/12/apple-updates-their-un...
https://9to5mac.com/2023/12/06/under-screen-face-id-2/
https://www.macrumors.com/2023/12/06/iphone-under-display-ca...
Not sure what is so joyous about opening your wallets for Apple. Normally people want more for their money, not less.
Did you want Apple to hold off on giving people extra real estate until that happened ?
I don't follow the tech press, who I'm sure discussed it a great length when it was released. And I'm not personally invested in the Mac, it's owned by my employer.
So I didn't notice the notch until my cursor disappeared while scrolling across the top of the screen.
I'd take a screenshot of it but ... ha!
My Dell has a nose cam… it’s so unpleasant a view that it is unusable IMO.
I do think the machine looks better with a dark menu bar in the "notched" area though. That's how I have my Asahi Linux system set up.
See the camera module here: https://forums.macrumors.com/attachments/img_0383-jpeg.22053...
Before Apple Silicon I always set the menu bar to autohide, and it bugs me unreasonably that I can't do that anymore.
I suspect those settings are available in the controller because some Apple engineers also hate the notch.
I don't mind that it exists and that some people prefer it to large bezels... I just wish there was a way to say "claim my screen is -X pixels and show me the full menu" like before. Without both requiring one app to be full screen and that crazy scaling mode that makes everything fuzzy.
And it achieves it by scaling the whole screen ever so slightly, ruining pixel offsets everywhere and making everything fuzzy, seemingly so it doesn't ever present a non-standard display ratio despite the notch being very non-standard already, and despite full screen apps already working on external monitors that can have any ratio.
It's not an option anywhere else. Nor would I want that fuzzy mess anyway. It's such an insane design.
System Settings > Displays > Advanced > Show resolutions list > Select the 16:9 resolution with slightly fewer vertical pixels than your current one
Dang that's well hidden. Why isn't that just a toggle in the advanced section or something...
Thank you! This is much better.
I paid a few dollars for the bartender app which solves for the hidden apps. Haven’t thought about it since.
PS: also looking around, there seem to be plenty of laptops with thin display bezel and no notch, if others can do it, why not Apple?
Because those laptops have worse webcams.
You don't have to agree with the tradeoff Apple made, in fact I don't, but I think the reasoning is pretty clear.
The notch feels weird, but when I try to redesign it without sacrificing features, I can’t come up with a better option. …Not that I’m a brilliant designer by any means.
I'm convinced this is true, at least partially.
The iPhone notch is branding and a visual differentiator from the competition, which is Apple's forte, and carrying over that very distinctive design element to other product lines seems right in Apple's playbook.
In other words: glass slab in your hand? Who knows. Glass slab with a black notch? iPhone.
Person typing on metallic laptop in a cafe? Who knows. Ah, but the screen has a notch? MacBook.
The extra room in the notch is likely there in case they want to change webcam parts to something larger, add Face ID, etc so they don’t also have to change the display panel and can continue to use existing stock.
Apple seems to like to try to avoid changing parts/tooling wherever possible and will go as far as to awkwardly keep using a chassis until stock of that part has been exhausted if necessary (see the 13” M1 Touch Bar MBP).
Yeah, I'm thinking firing Johnny Ive wasn't enough.
https://support.apple.com/en-ke/guide/mac-help/mchl86d72b76/....
The virtual escape key on the touch bar, all while Apple was pushing their laptops as developer friendly, is magnitudes worse
No, it had been the touch bar. There're multiply solutions for the notch, none had been imagined for that abomination.
I can't think of like, one time when it was an issue but I also have probably used TopNotch since then.
What you wrote about notch isn't a fact but a (controversial) opinion. Some people feel very strongly about it in a negative way, but many don't care.
Personally, I don't care much about notches, and if you can put the pixels very dark/black (ie. OLED) I don't think you should care either. With Settings -> Accessibility -> Reduce Transparency you can make the menubar very dark. But to be fair, miniLED isn't OLED.
I am using Bartender to hide items in menubar. I did so before notch existed. Without it, I wouldn't be able to fit my menubar (with or without notch).
Too bad they didn't increase the resolution of the display slightly for that.
Let me put it this way: if too many people dislike the notch, I'm cool they go without it. Or have two versions. The issue simply doesn't bother me, I'm indifferent about it. MBPs have had much worse issues between 2016 and 2020.
The phone notch is much less annoying now that they did whatever they did in the latest iOS to make it hardly noticeable.
My tinfoil hat take is that the true primary purpose of the notch is to drive upgrade purchases at some point in the future whenever serious technical advancements are waning.
I usually use my apps in fullscreen, which hides the menu bar, this has the very annoying side effect that moving the cursor to the top of the screen (where a lot of apps have buttons) will make the menu bar drop down and cover the buttons.
I am assuming a fullscreen app will not extend under the notch, so with this notch thing I imagine I could always have the menu bar visible on fullscreen apps without sacrificing screen real estate and without the annoying animation triggering when I want to interact with the upper part of the app. Can someone confirm it really works like this? I feel like it would be a huge improvement.
I mean maybe it's a bit of mental gymnastics, of course it's technically screen space taken away, but I am guessing the top bezel also becomes thinner so it seems like a great use of space to me, feels like it would allow me to justify always having the menu bar visible without feeling like it being there is wasting my space (because nothing else can be there). And having the menu bar always visible + avoiding this animation is something I would love.
The area of the screen below the notch is 16:10 resolution. The bar at the top is "extra".
Is it something to do with the lid being thinner than an iPhone so the entire camera assembly needs a cutout rather than just the lens? That's the only reason I can think of.
Personally, I'd rather even have a physical notch extending out from the edge of the screen, like a tab in the middle, than the current black cutout.
However I think Apple should be able to use some fancy engineering to keep the camera as hidden as possible in the edge of the screen surround. Or use multiple fibre optic points embedded in the screen along with those fancy neural processors to create an eye-to-eye webcam.
Agreed. It's such a bad bad bad design. No reason to hide the camera. Just make the bezel taller. Its fine.
It's just as bad as the notch/pill on the iPhone. Drives me crazy everytime I look at it.
Can't wait til we move to a notch free world.
Never gonna happen. Apple sales continue to grow despite the notch, so obviously users LOVE the notch.
The notch is here until we can put a camera and any other sensors inside the screen without losing pixels.
And I doubt users LOVE the notch. They tolerate the notch at best, and if you gave them a non-notch device, they'd instantly see the would hate the notch.
The comment was supposed to be rather tongue-in-cheek.
I'm poking fun at how companies will make a change to a product, people still buy the product, and the company then assumes that people must like the change.
Fact is, people will buy the latest iPhone no matter what. They make unpopular changes and people buy them anyways.
It's a great use of the space in the macOS menu bar that is otherwise usually wasted.
Moreover, having a good webcam is very important to a lot of Macbook users who would not be able to tolerate grainier cameras or the nostril-peering bottom positioning on some XPS laptops.
It is, however, super annoying that various implementation bugs have not been fixed after years.