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Comment by em500 | Hacker News Reader

Similar as the Netherlands: there 37 "hogescholen" marketing themselves as "University of Applied Sciences" in English that are not allowed to claim to be "universiteiten" in Dutch (a name is reserved for 14 more academically advanced institutions).

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The distinction becoming vague is due to the changes regarding the Bologna Process/European Qualification Framework - whereby both Universities and Technical Colleges both award bachelor degrees (EQF6) ... and if it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, and awards the same EQF paper at the end, then it's the same! I've taught in a programme that is offered in both Universities and Technical Colleges (Law) ... and the distinction becomes that universities are more theory based, whereas technical colleges are more practical ... and that matriculating into a university offered masters programme in NL from a technical college awarded bachelors is made harder (even with the same EQF6 paper) ... not that any other university in the EU would care about the distinction!

> reserved for 14 more academically advanced institutions

So "Technische Universiteit Delft" is not an advanced institution?

In either case, in Sweden "högskola" covers everything from small rinky-dink schools up to KTH (Kungliga Tekniska Högskola) in Stockholm and CTH (Chalmers Tekniska Högskola) which are among the top engineering schools in Sweden.

Both award doctoral degrees. I have not heard many people in Sweden argue that KTH/CTH are not as advanced as the top universities. The difference is just that the technical schools do not have departments for the humanities.

> So "Technische Universiteit Delft" is not an advanced institution?

It is, and it is also one of the 14 Dutch institutions that are allowed to use the Dutch "universiteit" name. But the English term "university" seems to be unprotected in the Netherlands.

Dutch speakers often fall into the trap of equating the terms ‘university’ and ‘universiteit’. Since the English language does not differentiate between the terms ‘hogeschool’ and ‘universiteit’, it is appropriate for both to translate into ‘university’.

(And then, of course, there’s also the term ‘volksuniversiteit’…)

But KTH and Chalmers are officially universities despite their names. Jönköping was not until recently.

> Jönköping was not until recently.

It still isn't. Unlike KTH and Chalmers, "Jönköping University" is listed as a university college, not a university: https://www.uka.se/swedish-higher-education-authority/about-...

Yeah you're right, sorry. I confused them with some other school that recently became a university.

Same in Germany where Fachhoschulen (hogescholen) marketing themselves successfully to internationals as "University of Applied Sciences"

Same in Finland. "University of applies sciences" is not a real university but rather a lower level institution (ammattikorkeakoulu/yrkeshögskola/Fachhochschule). The difference is clear for locals but I bet many international students have been tricked by the English branding.

Yep. Pretty misleading. They can use it because the law doesn't mention that word, and their management likes to pretend they are running a university, and because they were so focused on attracting foreign students.

> They can use it because the law doesn't mention that word

This is not true. The law defines which schools are allowed to call themselves "hogeschool", and also that the English translation of that word is "university of applied sciences" or, if limited to a specific job profile, "university of <said profile>".

See https://zoek.officielebekendmakingen.nl/stb-2017-97.html

> Het voeren van de naam hogeschool is voorbehouden aan de instellingen voor hoger onderwijs die zijn opgenomen in de bijlage van deze wet onder g, en aan rechtspersonen voor hoger onderwijs. Onder het voeren van de naam hogeschool wordt tevens het voeren van deze naam in samenstellingen verstaan, alsmede het voeren van de naam hogeschool in vertalingen. In afwijking van artikel 1.22, eerste lid, wordt de naam hogeschool in het Engels aangeduid met «university of applied sciences» dan wel, bij hogescholen die opleiden tot een bepaald beroepsprofiel, «university» met daarachter het vakgebied.

Ah, my bad. I didn't know the levels of delusion had gone that far.

Germany's and Austrias Universities of Applied Science use the same trick, Fachhochschulen is their German name.

Not anymore. They have all(?) rebranded to „Universität“ in German.

But that‘s intentional. Former FHs are practically identical in law to universities. They all have the right to promotion, their masters and bachelors are legally identical to universities‘ masters and bachelors.

The former "Diplom" and "Diplom (FH)" were not identical. When those still existed the distinction of "Universität" and "Fachhochschule" was meaningful. The rebranding is a consequence of the old kind of degrees having been replaced by new ones, not just a marketing trick.

Yes, you're right, the causal link is this.

Not in Austria.

There's a very clear distinction between FHs and Universities. Not necessarily in reputation or level of education, but they are separated entities. And you cannot get a PhD from an FH.

I initially wanted to say that this is entirely wrong, but when I went to do a quick check, I found this: https://www.che.de/2023/haelfte-der-bundeslaender-hat-promot... So my knowledge was not entirely up to date.

In short, bachelors and masters are indeed legally identical to the ones acquired at universities, but most do not have the right to promotion. This mostly depends on the state they're in. And they are not allowed to call themselves "Universität" (though some have rebranded to "Hochschule").

All FHs that I know do have an option for getting a Phd through them, but they themselves can't grant them. Instead, an FH can cooperate with an Universität through a sort of loophole. The Phd students spend their time at the FH, but they have two supervisors and get their Phd from the "Universität".

But it seems like it is only a matter of time until difference, too, is no more.

Not true that FH degrees are identical in all respects: for the civil service there is still a difference in pay.

The RWTH in Germany still uses Hochschule, but does add University now to their name.

The RWTH has never been a FH, though. It‘s „Technische Hochschule“ for the same reason why the University of Stuttgart was a „Technische Hochschule“ for a long time: traditionalists insist that a university must have medicine, law and religion.

Yes, never FH, but also not university.

No, the RWTH is indeed a university. Many (old) THs were granted the status of "Universität" in the 70s and 80s, see https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technische_Universit%C3%A4t

And if you don't trust Wikipedia, the RWTH refers to itself as an "Universität", see here for example: https://www.rwth-aachen.de/cms/root/Die-RWTH/Aktuell/Hochsch... Doing so would be illegal if they weren't one, so I don't see where the claim that they're not comes from.

Yes, it is (and was for a while now) a university but it didn't refer to itself as university until quite recently.

Do you have a source for that claim? This is the first time I'm hearing of a difference in pay for FH and Universität degrees there (regarding bachelor and master, old diploma system doesn't count).

Have a look here with the references to "wissenschaftliche Hochschule" and some differences between between degrees/needs: https://www.bva.bund.de/SharedDocs/Downloads/DE/Behoerden/Be...

(Slide 9, for example).

Edit: you are right that the difference might not always apply, but they are not always identical by default as far as I understand it.

I can't think of a single example of a former FH having rebranded to "Universität". The closest I can think of is the incorporation of FH Lausitz into BTU Cottbus. In any case, there are still >200 FHs in Germany which are not using the "Universität" label and without right to award doctorates. I'm really not sure what you are talking about.

You seem to be really misinformed about the legal definitions of these tertiary education institutes in Austria.

Universities of applied sciences are governed under the "Fachhochschulgesetz"[1] (Universities of Applied Sciences Law) while universities are governed under the "Universitätsgesetz"[2] (Universities Law). This carries loads of differences with it, i.e. when it comes to academic freedom and right to promotion. Professors at universities of applied sciences are much more limited in their academic freedom and these institutions do not possess the right to promotion at all.

Not sure where you got your information as it's wildly untrue in some respects.

[1] https://ris.bka.gv.at/GeltendeFassung.wxe?Abfrage=Bundesnorm...

[2] https://ris.bka.gv.at/GeltendeFassung.wxe?Abfrage=Bundesnorm...

I haven‘t said a word about Austria.

You responded to a comment talking about "Germany's and Austria's Universities of Applied Science" - which countries did you mean if not Germany and Austria?

Germany, obviously.

Enough harassment for tonight?

Many have rebranded themselves as "Hochschule" Not "Universität"

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