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Comment by stephen_g | Hacker News Reader

How is a mini-split $5-7K in the US? A 6kW Mitsubishi Electric mini-split is $1800 (US$1200) here in Australia and you’ll pay another $650 (US$420) to get it installed… My 5 kW air to water heat pump was about $6K (US$4K) before a $900 (US$600) rebate but they are less common here so I think still cost a bit more than in Europe or the UK.

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Yeah so basically the guideline here is 25 btus per sqft, which is 270 btus per m2, house is 110ish m2, so it’s roughly 30k btus. So then get a 30k btu condenser, about $3400, plus three 12k air handlers ($600 each or so), plus labor and the rest of the random parts. Could be overkill, I’m just following guidelines for the estimate.

How do you get it installed for $420? You can barely get an HVAC technician to come and say hi for $420 in California.

It's a pretty big market here I guess - this is for a simple installation, of course, with the mini split on a wall back to back with the external wall, running the piping down and hooking up and gassing. But that's about the standard price everyone was charging for that when I put my last one in two years ago. If you were putting in a ducted system obviously it would cost more.

Charged around 1.5k AUD for a recent back to back install in Melbourne. Tradies have bumped up their rates by quite a high margin citing cost of living and with it their profit margins.

You don't. At least not for an install these days. Their data point must have been from a few years earlier.

My experience having installed one a couple of months ago is that the installer charged around 1.5k AUD just for the installation(by my calculation using retail prices) for a back to back "simple" install for the same brand and size mentioned. This is in Melbourne, Australia.

I did get multiple quotes that were the same and this was before peak summer season. The ones that were lower were either not licensed or wanted to do it for cash - meaning they wouldn't declare and pay taxes on it so the customer gets it for cheaper. It also means they won't give you an invoice and good luck claiming damages without evidence.

They blame the high cost of living but knowing some insiders, the margins are huge.

HVAC companies bid as if they're entitled to $4K of labor/profit for a half-day of on-site work. It's maddening.

Im frustrated with HVAC and solar too, but I suppose that as long as nobody else wants to do the work, they are indeed correct.

Indeed. Not helping are all the "get a heat pump installed and receive a $6K rebate"s (which drive up the bid price by around $5K-$6K).

Yep, same story with solar rebates, most of it goes to the installer.

Home construction work is really interesting, because the transaction costs are so high around locating and comparing the service providers.

It is easy to say there isnt enough competition, but im not sure that is actually true. I think more likely is that most consumers dont collect 10+ quotes and compare, so the price signal is weak.

Second biggest issue with California is the contractors licensing system ended up creating a system of guilds.

First biggest is high rents drives up the cost of labor.

>First biggest is high rents drives up the cost of labor.

Tell me about it. I just got quoted 80k to landscape my residential backyard.

For 1 year of my take home salary.. I'll do it myself.

Yeah 40k of that 80k goes to the workers landlords.

Would you say HVAC companies are more or less "entitled" to that labor/profit, compared to, say, a company that prints business cards for those kinds of small businesses?

Any business is entitled to the profit they’re able to compete for and satisfy their customers, HVAC, lending, printing, whatever, even selling pictures of your butthole on the internet.

When regulation serves to limit via licensing and multi-year apprenticeships is where you get into market distortions that sometimes serve consumers and sometimes harm them. This happens to some degree in licensed trades (price out a drywall crew, painting or carpet [not licensed or at least licensed without apprenticeship in most places] vs a plumber, electrician, or HVAC).

Part of the problem is that buying refrigerant requires a certification/license.

Also in Seattle, only an HVAC company can pull a permit for refrigeration, even though plenty of heat pumps/mini splits are pre-charged and you'll never need to touch refrigerant.

The EPA 608 universal takes about 90-120 minutes online and is free at SkillCat (no affiliation, but I tossed them $50 as a thanks). The 609 (for autos) takes way less time but costs $25 online.

I’ve bought refrigerants online several times over the years without showing any license (even though I hold an EPA 608 and 609). It’s legal to buy for resale, which is probably how suppliers get around checking.

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