The King of Curcumin: a case study in consequences of large-scale research fraud
reeserichardson.blog
reeserichardson.blog
If intentional fraud can be proven (not just mistake or incompetence; doctored figures seem like sufficient evidence as that doesn't happen accidentally) the author should face jail time.
In the UK, fraud is 40% of the crime and just 1% of police resources [0]. Wouldn’t surprise me if Canada is the same.
[0] https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/64539087faf4a...
I think more evidence is needed by the author to make that assertion. The thousands of research scientists behind those studies aren't idiots nor are they all paid off by Big Curcumin. It's hard to believe they're not aware of the criticisms and just willfully wasting their time.
so the retracted articles are NOT about curcumin specifically? and why where they retracted? because they were false or because they were plagiarized?
I think more evidence is needed by the author to make that assertion.
If you read that it explains that despite all that research there has not been a single double blind trial that has shown it works. It also explains the chemistry of the compound and why effects shown in vitro are unlikely to work in vivo.
Minute changes in each study, within different contexts, can have significant impacts.
If there is only one side presented on any topic, be wary of the research.
This guy was selected to be trained in biochemistry above so many people, all to culminate in what might be a net negative effect on society. That he's still giving talks and conducting research with funds instead of someone more deserving disappoints me.
Even the former CEO of Enron can get investors to take his call asking for investment. Being synonymous with fraud and spending a decade in prison for fraud is no barrier.
He is probably in the top 1% of being able to raise investment for a business.
Andrew Wakefield, the guy who claimed vaccines cause autism, remains a common and presumably paid speaker in the anti vaccine circuit.
“ Curcumin doesn’t work well as a therapeutic agent for any disease. Though it is safe for human consumption in most forms and will show activity in essentially any in vitro assay you throw at it (via a process known as assay interference), no well-powered clinical trials have ever found it to be an effective medicine.”
According to well run studies, Turmeric does ~~nothing~~ for your ailment.
The paper you've posted directly cites Aggarwal five times. Most of the references that aren't by Aggarwal cite him. The entire literature on curcumin is a house of cards built on fraudulent research.
https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fnut.2022.10402...
It's a valid idea to critique Aggarwal for plagiarism but counter-productive to completely debunk the years of research that has gone into curcumin by other researchers.
Related earlier:
Fake scientific papers push research credibility to crisis point https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39241643
The scientists fighting the epidemic of fraudulent science research
Researchers taking on fraudulent science - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39244601 - Feb 2024 (57 comments)
In humans it would take a heroic dose to do anything nasty.
Even for kids ??
That said I read several of the recall notices and the recalls were for products containing like 50-100ppm of lead chromate, not lead, in something people typically consume less than a gram per day of in supplemnt form. Even for a child it would take regular use of large amounts to add up to any real impact.
This was the FDA showing zero tolerance, as they should, but I don't think anyone was actually harmed, and it's not a reason to panic.
https://m.timesofindia.com/lead-chromate-was-being-used-to-b...
(Their "costing trillions" claim might be overblown.)
> Like nearly every trendy non-rx supplement that has been around for this long, if there were any substantive medical benefits that could be demonstrated empirically in clinical drug trials, a prescription variant would have emerged
This is unfortunately not completely correct. Vitamin D supplements don't appear to do anything to me, even though my doc prescribed it. But NAC (for example) is not commonly prescribed even though many people have reported a reduction of OCD behaviour. L Tyrosine can be almost as effective as ADHD medication for some, yet even though it is well known in nootropic circles the doctor will rather prescribe a medical stimulant.
The reason is probably just "FDA approval"/safety in most cases, but make no mistake, current prescriptions are years to decades behind current medical research. (I can expand more if you'd like.)
Obviously, the effect of a compound that does not require prescription and has few side effects is modest. But we are talking about a two digit % reduction in incidence, which is pretty respectable. At individual level, it is of course hard to see any effect. And if you are in trouble already, you will typically need, something stronger, a drug.
Whenever studies test multiple things in parallel and single in on one of them as significant with a p-value of 0.05, it's not really a bulletproof conclusion.
Vitamin D shouldn't do anything noticeable, unless you have a severe deficit. Health influencers have been trying to exaggerate the effects of Vitamin D and exaggerate how many people might be deficient for a long time. Too many people taking too high of a dose without ever even trying to test their blood levels.
> But NAC (for example) is not commonly prescribed even though many people have reported a reduction of OCD behaviour.
NAC is actually routinely used as medicine: It's used to great effect in cases of Tylenol overdose.
However, NAC is another compound for which the effects have become greatly exaggerated and the potential downsides ignored. You can find scattered reports on Reddit about NAC having life-changing properties on the first dose, it's hard to untangle that from placebo effect. It's much harder to find people who have continued taking it for a long time with great effect.
It has actually been studied multiple times over for OCD, but the studies haven't been great quality and haven't revealed the same miraculous effects reported by health influencers: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4423164/
> L Tyrosine can be almost as effective as ADHD medication for some, yet even though it is well known in nootropic circles the doctor will rather prescribe a medical stimulant.
This is just false. L-Tyrosine on an empty stomach can have a minor modulating effect on dopamine, but the effect is nowhere near as potent as stimulant medication, fades quickly, is prone to rapid tolerance, and can't be repeated unless the person has an empty stomach (~2 hours since last meal).
If you don't believe me, look up the L-Tyrosine content of some common meat and dairy products. You can get nearly 1 gram of L-Tyrosine from a glass of milk or 2 grams from a chicken breast.
This is another one where people miss the fine print about empty stomach, take 1000mg (2 pills, commonly) with a meal, and then report glowing experiences only because they've been primed to expect them. Once you explain that they've been consuming grams of L-Tyrosine every day for their entire lives, the placebo effect starts to make sense.
Taking it on an empty stomach can produce certain effects, but they're minimal.
> current prescriptions are years to decades behind current medical research. (I can expand more if you'd like.)
Given the examples you provided, I think you're overestimating your own knowledge of supplements. You're also underestimating the effects of prescription medication if you think L-Tyrosine is on the same level as Schedule II prescription stimulants.
Agreed. However when I was prescribed it my levels were several times lower than the minimum normal values. However physiology and biology affects a lot of things, so it is tough to say why I didn't feel anything.
> NAC is actually routinely used as medicine: It's used to great effect in cases of Tylenol overdose.
(Yep, I'm aware of this! :) What I meant is as a supplement though, not in the ER.
> However, NAC is another compound for which the effects have become greatly exaggerated and the potential downsides ignored. You can find scattered reports on Reddit about NAC having life-changing properties on the first dose, it's hard to untangle that from placebo effect. It's much harder to find people who have continued taking it for a long time with great effect.
> It has actually been studied multiple times over for OCD, but the studies haven't been great quality and haven't revealed the same miraculous effects reported by health influencers: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4423164/
That's certainly possible, I myself haven't felt anything from NAC. However iirc anti depressants like SSRIs have been shown to barely be more effective than placebos in many cases, but that doesn't stop doctors from prescribing them willy-nilly. (Example link I found https://www.nature.com/articles/ncpneuro0803)
Lithium for example too, benefits some people but not all equally. So why not try NAC if the risks are low and potential benefits are high?
> This is just false. L-Tyrosine on an empty stomach can have a minor modulating effect on dopamine, but the effect is nowhere near as potent as stimulant medication, fades quickly, is prone to rapid tolerance, and can't be repeated unless the person has an empty stomach (~2 hours since last meal).
I was a bit scarce on the details for privacy reasons, but I am "some people" :)
It's probably helpful to note that folks with ADHD like me probably have some other wonkiness in the dopamine pathways, but I legitimately cannot differentiate between a l tyrosine tablet (forget the dose) and a normal-low dose of methylphenidate. (Yes, 20mg of methyl. will not be the same, but given the side effects the lower doses are slightly better for me.)
I'm aware of the quantities in food, I agree that the empty stomach part and low tolerance also very likely played a role in my experience.
> Given the examples you provided, I think you're overestimating your own knowledge of supplements. You're also underestimating the effects of prescription medication if you think L-Tyrosine is on the same level as Schedule II prescription stimulants.
I most certainly do not think I have anywhere close to the fraction of the knowledge an expert who truly understand the brain would have. However, I think neither do most people, and I also think doctors are too overworked/pessimistic/old-fashioned/underpaid (take your pick) to actually learn about new substances and prescribe them. I have also witnessed first hand the need to advocate for yourself in front of doctors, and read about the sometimes fatal risks of not doing so. I don't assume malice, but I do assume other issues in the healthcare system at large in today's world.
If the traditional medications don't work or have intolerable side effects, maybe that's the time to explore uncommon approaches, but that generally is not the case for the stimulant meds.
> If the traditional medications don't work or have intolerable side effects, maybe that's the time to explore uncommon approaches, but that generally is not the case for the stimulant meds.
It may not be the case for probably 70-80% of patients, but a lot of people complain of reduced appetite. I would experience annoying joint/muscle pain that can apparently be a "very common" (more than 1 in 10) side effect. (This is not specific to tyrosine, just replying to your comment specifically. I didn't realize that different stimulant meds can reduce/stop side effects altogether to such an extent until some time back.)
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamaneurology/article-abstr....
Could by genetics. who knows. By the way, many PhD educated chemists I know, take Fish oil. Including me :-)
https://examine.com/supplements/curcumin/
So yeah, like sibling said, it doesn't seem to do much.
> Curcumin is the primary bioactive substance in turmeric. It has anti-inflammatory properties, and there is decent evidence that it can alleviate various conditions, from chronic pain to depression. Curcumin has poor bioavailability on its own, and thus it is often combined with Black Pepper or with lipids.
I'm not sure how you got " it doesn't seem to do much"?
I can't tell how much of the linked effects are based on retracted papers (it's all members-only), but I wouldn't trust these websites too much until every dubious paper has been retracted and websites like these have been updated, if they will be updated at all.
Most scientific research into the substance seems to be based (at least in part) on Aggarwal's work, so in turn most of the research needs to be re-evaluated; that's a lot of tedious work, and I'm not sure if websites like these will have the manpower to do that.
Those are the only effects I can personally attest to.
Curcumin, the substance you can buy on Amazon and take orally, seems to do very little. Not much of it gets into your blood so there isn't much comparison to the mouser/rat studies. There are formulations that try to get more into your system (piperine or various lipid encapsulations) but little real-world evidence.
From watching forums on and off for years, I can say that nobody seems impressed with it for depression or anxiety (beyond some short placebo periods). I have seen some people claim that certain formulations reduce inflammation for them, but they've come with caveats that it can also reduce things like libido at those doses.
But there is a ton of evidence that eating more fibers does help. And this should be favored before any random supplement of more often that not dubious quality.
His recommendation was to us the spice copiously in cooking. I'm a vegan and get tons of fiber, which he also recommended (both through food and supplementation) but thought I was mostly good on that front. He did have me take guar gum on the side.
Did your doctor also have any other suggestions?
Regarding what my doctor told me, I was seeing him for gut issues, and he put me on Boswellia extract (just for one bottle worth) for inflammation, guar gum starting at 1/4 tsp then graduating up to 1 tsp, and eating a lot of red fruits and vegetables throughout the day, e.g. beets/beet greens, red cabbage, pomegranates, cranberries etc.
That's bullshit, curcumin is effective against staph infections.
I stand by what I said, I've used tumeric for some minor infections. Antibiotic ointments (that are petroleum based) do not penetrate the skin adequately and I find tumeric paste to be much more effective in some instances.
There is a lot of evidence for the efficacy of curcumin. Aside from what evidence is valid or not, my own experiences confirm efficacy.