Apple Vision Pro and ADHD
dansalva.to
dansalva.to
I never used the iPad is anything more than a consumption device and as things stand right now I’m not sure if the apple Vision Pro is going to be more than that for me either. I wrote about this in my first impressions blog post [0], but what I really wanted was to use the Apple Vision Pro as a replacement for my computer monitors, it’s just not there yet. I look forward to future revisions and I’m also on a 13 day countdown to decide if I want to keep this or not.
[0] https://joshstrange.com/2024/02/03/apple-vision-pro-first-im...
Same until I got the keyboard. Most of my iPads collected dust in a corner because I don’t really do that much consumption.
Then I got the Magic Keyboard and my iPad basically replaced my laptop. I use it for almost all my non-coding work. Even to give talks and workshops at conferences. The battery life is amazing, the form factor super convenient, and it fits on airplanes or in your lap perfectly.
Nowadays my laptop mostly works as a desktop computer sitting in its dock hooked into a keyboard, monitor, and mouse. Useful only for very serious work.
Unfortunately iOS is very nerfed compared to MacOS even though my M2 iPad probably hs more compute than my i9 laptop.
I think my only other complaints would be these:
1. Scrolling in Safari can be annoying depending on the website. Last night I was trying to refactor some GitHub Actions, and scrolling through the Action run page, it really wanted to get stuck selecting random parts of the GitHub UI that were close to what I was looking at but definitely not what I was looking at. I want some kind of cursor I can pick up and move in those scenarios I guess.
2. I don’t know why but I kinda expected my iPad keyboard to just work with the AVP, but it obviously did not. I wanted it to work like it does with the Mac, where I can just connect to the iPad as another screen and also use its peripherals, but that was not the case, so I had to run up to my office and grab a Bluetooth keyboard.
All in all it’s not a bad experience so far. I’m not sold on it being better than the iPad just because the AVP is so heavy. But it’s definitely cool having a gigantic 4k terminal floating in the air above my bed while my wife reads her book and calls me a turbonerd. :P
I started to write the feature but could feel the added friction and slowness. There was a little bit of input lag (moving mouse and feel like it wasn't moving as quick on the AVP), then I started getting an error from my backend in a place I hadn't touched anything. I very quickly took off the AVP to investigate with the "full power" of my MBP and external monitors.
The text in the AVP is clear when you are looking at your code but moving your head "smears" the picture a bit and anything you aren't focusing on isn't clear. It would be workable and maybe I'd use it on a plane but never if I have my monitors available to me. I want to try again in the next few days but it's a decent way off from replacing my monitors.
With regards the ‘smearing’, not sure how familiar you are with VR tech but, could you characterise it further?
Some things it may be off the top of my head:
Is it the display not switching pixel state fast enough? This was a problem with early Oculus headsets until we figured out how to strobe displays for ‘low persistence’.
Or, is it eye tracking lag, resulting in the foveated rendering not keeping up with where you are looking quickly enough? Human eyes can move extremely quickly from point-to-point (called saccades).
Be great to get your thoughts on the possible cause / tech limitations.
I hope this answers some of your questions.
Sure, but the vision pro offers "bigger" monitors that can fill your vision (if you want)
That would be a really curious limitation.
My statement was of course about the AVP; everyone knows you can use bluetooth mice on a mac.
The pointer comes up like when you use a trackpad or mouse with the iPad.
1: https://joshstrange.com/2012/03/21/why-i-canceled-my-college...
So what if I get myself a Raspberry Pi 8GB and jumps into VSCode and VSCode only? Is it possible to make a VSCode "terminal" that only shows VSCode? OK let's make it more interesting: it also has network connection and the ChatGPT plugin for VSCode installed, so that I don't have to leave for another desktop to "find" something.
What do you think?
Definitely think your idea is worth trying for yourself.
I've had a standing desk for 8 or 9 years now and I stand probably 75% of the time. When I sit, my chair is not very comfortable but also standing isn't always ideal either. This is while also mixing in 2-3 walks or jogs through out the day.
After working for ~8-9 hours in that environment and being up for 14-15 hours, sometimes when I'm in a vegetable state where I'm laying in bed watching a movie I feel highly motivated to work on something but I don't have a laptop and the thought of getting back up rarely wins.
With that said, I'd say my most productive "programming thoughts" happen right as I wake up and am laying in bed. I often spend 15-20 minutes thinking about exactly how I'll solve something and then get to that during the day. This is for both work and personal projects.
However, I find that with ADHD, a good “system” doesn’t solve all my problems. There is then the fundamental problem of regularly using that system, which it turns out ADHD also makes a serious challenge. So, yes, good systems have tremendous value, but just prepare for the undertaking of staying committed to the system you’ve set up for yourself.
I find pomodo style gorilla warfare works best for me. I tell myself I will work on the implementation for 15 minutes. If after 15 minutes I am still repelled by this task to the point I am unproductive, then I accept that, make necessary notes and do something else.
I will try again tomorrow. Eventually I hit a point where I have done enough that I am motivated to continue to see it completed.
I will do gorilla attacks on cleaning my office, writing marketing email, inbox zero, implementing some new feature. It works for me for a lot of things.
When I am just unable to do what I’m “supposed” to do then I give myself grace and go do the thing that is consuming my attention at the moment.
This “unproductive” stuff often becomes new ideas, new features, new friends, and brings meaning to my life.
Last month, I prototyped a desktop app of a blinking border to assist with getting into a "flow state", which has been pretty effective in keeping me focused for set durations for the past few weeks. Shared with a few friends who have also said it's helped them be more productive so happy to share these tools with fellow HN'ers.
Email in my bio if you wanna give it a try before I launch it on App Store in the coming weeks.
I think if this becomes the only reason to keep the device, for sure explore some other options like Quest 3 and see if it's sufficient. It does a lot more things than a Vision Pro and costs so much less. It's pretty personal whether the resolution cuts it or you really need the quality of the Vision Pro or not, but it works for me.
I feel like I really should have waited for Quest 3, not have gotten a Quest 2 because it was cheaper. Then again, I quite like the concept of VR and if some of the software wasn't so buggy (currently I need to run GPU drivers from 2020 for my RX 580, since the newer ones cause driver crashes), I can definitely imagine myself spending more time in VR! Except for eye strain and basically staring into super bright screens close to my face.
Once I eventually get there, just chilling in space, with a few floating windows and getting some work done will be a pretty zen experience. Just have to wait a while until the hardware becomes more affordable.
One thing it convinces me is that the resolution in Vision Pro is completely unnecessary for me. I need about 20% more resolution and I am done, after that other things are more important.
I met a Facebook recruiter once, maybe 3-4 years ago, who was bragging about how his team was collecting data about the interiors and uses of private indoor spaces.
If I'm in a charitable mood, I’ll take that to mean “contents of stores and restaurants,” but I’m not always so optimistic
Same goes for comment sections and any time people get the opportunity to do anything with a possible attention reward. I've taken to being conscious of the kinds of obnoxious/unhelpful/nitpicking responses when commenting in threads to try to discourage low quality responses.
I was also serious that the flaws are part of the charm for me, because it really does harken back to the “gadget age” of the 2000s. It takes me back to being 15 years old, wearing a Fossil Wrist PDA, trying to be productive with Palm OS using a fingernail-sized stylus. I really loved that sort of thing, and it’s been really hard for me to recapture that feeling this past decade.
AVP is a device that, so far, has brought me joy and makes me think about my relationship with technology. If not for the price tag, it would be a no-brainer for me to keep. But as I continue to mess around with the device, the price is constantly ringing in the back of my mind, making me want to justify it, even though I may not be able to in the end.
I assume You are being deliberately ridiculous?
Probably not more enjoyment, unless you pretend the early buyer can never upgrade ever.
> The "patient gamers" subreddit seems to agree with this thinking. You basically just delay your game of choice by a few years. Makes absolutely no difference to you except you save money and perhaps skip some disappointing titles.
It makes no difference if you almost never talk about the game with anyone and want almost no multiplayer out of it either. That fits some games but definitely not others.
And if the game in question doesn't interest anyone after X years... there are probably good reasons for that ? Why would you first start playing and discussing it then ?
The discussion problem is that nobody you know is exploring the game. There's no collaborative learning and sharing and theorycrafting. Even if they played it they might not remember the story well after five years.
(And also one much more experienced player complaining that "nobody is reading the rules", and getting pushback about some "mandatory" rule that I guess some very experienced players are used to, but "we are not all as good at the game as you, bud".)
And this doesn't even take into account motivating your family/friends to play with you, there was one dad+son looking for tech support and at least one another dad+son game going on.
In specific terms an early adopter risks disappointment and at best gets an early version of a product. Subsequent upgrades provide marginal enjoyment and often feel more like obligations than anything. The late adopter comes in when they know they need/want the product and they go from zero to a much later, more capable version of the product. And then get to enjoy just as many real quality of life improvements, they're delayed but the frequency can be the same. Plus they save a whole load of money.
In that case, someone that is easily able to delay but chooses not to might be happiest of all?
> Subsequent upgrades provide marginal enjoyment and often feel more like obligations than anything.
Uh huh...
I don't know, I don't find your argument at all convincing that this person gets less enjoyment considering they get to have the same product at the end.
Maybe they have less of a first day wow factor if they touch many intermediate versions, but that fades fast. But even that is a maybe because by splitting up advances you can give each one more focus.
Learning how to walk is way better than crawling, but you're not going to have more total enjoyment by waiting and going nowhere in the mean time.
> Plus they save a whole load of money.
Obviously they save money, but the interesting part of your claim was that they both save money and get more enjoyment.
Instant gratification is largely simple decisions by simple people.
You're allowed to like tech even is it's not yet practical or even when it clearly will never be.
The whole gratification part comes from playing with the bleeding edge. It comes with dreaming of what this tech could become.
I shouldn't complain, though. Early adopters are like investors who don't receive any equity. They pay for the R&D etc that people like me later get to benefit from.
But then again, it helps the entire industry that it apparently has reached a different audience this time who gets hyped again.
I just wish there could be new use-cases than just the same old recycled use-cases like virtual monitors, watching movies, looking at how it is to stand on the moon, or virtual conferencing. Maybe there really are no killer VR apps, except beat saber :/
Wasn't AVP supposed to be an AR headset? Or they just haven't really figured out what to do there? Now it's just a VR headset with passthrough, it isn't really "using" the external world.
Also the window where wealthy early adopters confuse their ability to spend ridiculous money on a beta product with actual possession of insight or wisdom; this is the Z-tier of access journalism.
I read it as saying "this thing has some major limitations that forced me to slow down, which is actually valuable for me because I have ADHD. I didn't expect that and it's kind of neat, but who knows if that's actually valuable long term. Also here are some other details about the device imo"
As someone who also has pretty severe adhd, I relate to the idea that barriers to impulsivity can be really valuable and it was interesting to read about someone experiencing that unintentionally. It makes me feel more connected to the world of people like me. I didn't come away thinking they're suggesting I buy one because I have adhd, honestly, I came away being _less_ likely to get one because of the author's description of their experience.
It was just an experience another human found neat and wanted to put on their blog. I personally like when people feel comfortable and inspired to share like that.
This was basically completely new product category for many, many people. Yes, the Pebble existed, but the Pebble was niche and ultra niche. (I had one; loved the original and the Time).
The first Watch was crazy limited compared to today's variants, but the punditry was unceasing. Especially since you had people debating whether they should spend $10k on basically a flex.
god damn; this is the most dystopian shit i've read in a while.
"real" outside isn't good enough to work in, so i'll pay $3500 to work in a fake outside in my own house and wear that headset while i'm in real outside to tailor this outside to my preferences.
interpreted another way: "real" outside is nice, but everything costs more money than i want to spend, so i'll spend $3500 once (or $1500 to buy the 1G headset) to create infinite "outsides" that i don't have to spend more money on
like, are we actually okay with this???
this might be me showing my age (late 30s) but i'm actually scared of this technology becoming mainstream and destroying whatever semblance of society we have left.
exmaple: why should people go to bars when they can just strap on a vision pro and put themselves in a bar that's perfect for them while drinking their own supply in their own home?
if that takes off, then anyone who actually likes going to real bars (me, for ex.) are basically forced into the virtual bars since real bars as a whole won't be economically viable anymore.
extended out further, walkable cities won't be necessary since everyone will be interacting through these kinds of headsets in their home, self-driving cars will be the only kinds of cars that are legal to drive, and most businesses would have moved into the metaverse since that's where the money is
i'm basically afraid of Ready Player One becoming real
Also don't forget a motive is to meet people and hook up. That won't be as good virtually as in real life for a long time.
This tech will eventually be available to most people on the planet in the same way smartphones are. But vacations to Yosemite likely won't be. And that's not counting doing stuff like standing on Mars or traveling to a fantasy world.
I have an AVP and it is cool as hell, but I enjoy taking it off when I'm done with the thing I'm doing. I think most people like IRL. I don't think having more options for experiences is a bad thing.
Mid 20s here and I'm absolutely scared about how people cheer and want these gadgets. Not too far from a black mirror episode, just in slow motion
Tho, I have been trying a few different techniques to get myself more focused such as deleting TikTok and forcing myself to keep my phone on Do Not Disturb., etc.
I've even recently built an desktop app around the techniques described in this other HN Post here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38274782 and using some techniques in Cal Newport's book "Deep Work" which has significantly helped me stay focused and get into a flow state much easier. I'm going to be launching this app soon in the App Store in the coming weeks. Would love to share my app with fellow HN'ers and get some feedback.
Email in my bio if any one wants to give it a try.
I've never heard of anything like the concept mentioned in the linked article, what is your app? Is it going to be for MacOS? Have you found it useful?
But I swear Im getting the vibe from preview videos that hand interactions with windows etc have what looks like a 100ms lag on them.
Can anyone confirm if there is lag when moving objects around in this thing?
Cos that would wear on any user fast.
( I hope it doesn't I'm really looking forward to this, Im just wondering if its as perfect interactionwise as iphones are )
But thank you for replying! It sounds like you like it mate.
I live in a household with catastrophic ADHD. I really have no idea what minor ADHD is like, but the last thing catastrophic ADHD needs is a gaming experience. A gaming experience is not going to cure the brain damage that causes people to require a minimum of 11 hours of sleep per day or misplace everything they own, including clothes, shoes, and wrist watches.
To understand the complexity of brain medication requires an understanding of the problem. For ADHD the problem is both dopamine and low serotonin. Dopamine is complicated and moderating for it has second and third order consequences the ill cannot see. Solving for serotonin is simple and the results are crystal clear. So it seems many of the medications attempt to adjust for both with various degrees of success. When a person with ADHD attempts to self medicate with drugs, stimulants, or bad food choices they are solving for serotonin up take and it doesn’t work.
Another problem with medications in high concentrations is body tolerance which eventually eliminates the value of the medication and medication can run out.
Currently we are working through behavior modification of risk/reward. If you lose something you don’t have it anymore so perform a deep dive on that emotional consequence to think of solutions and planning to address that moving forward. This is working but it’s supremely and requires overcoming lots of adversity.
Maybe it truly is necessary for some people. But I would really caution its usage. It’s the same as putting a hammer and slamming it against the person’s brain. It’s also temporary and goes away the moment the drug disappears.
Meditation has the benefit of bringing permanent positive changes. But more importantly it acts in a way that recognizes the incredible complexity that our brains consist of.
Some meditative insight might reveal that, in fact, everything is temporary. Therapies don't need to be cures.
No mental disorder is caused by low anything. ADHD (some types) are more like you have extra leaky neurons and the dopamine falls out of them. On the other hand, serotonin drugs working for depression seems like it might be a coincidence.
Strattera mostly affects norepinephrine though.
I've tried several techniques, that have had some minor initial success, but I just get bored and stop doing it. Which is also why I never became a better than beginner guitar player, properly filled out my opening repertoire in chess, finished almost any project I started, or did regular exercise. I just can't get myself to do boring repetitive tasks.
It means you’re giving your brain a good workout basically, and it’s improving.
I've tried to meditate before, but... it doesn't really work. If I try to think less, then thoughts will just hide themselves from me. repeatedly, some new fully-developed thought will just suddenly reveal itself to me, having already been developing for the past 10+ seconds without my knowledge. And this will just keep happening. Stuff just keeps happening in the background and I have no control of it. It's like other parts of my brain are thinking completely for themselves and all I can do is watch and beg for control, and never get it.
I'm autistic, and that type of experience is commonly recognized as an autistic pattern of thought.
I don't want to live like this, the catastrophic ADHD, but it doesn't seem like there's any way to fix it. I feel like my brain is completely defective.
That sounds like successful meditation, because noticing this is the first thing you're supposed to learn using it.
Just practice it going away again once it shows up.
I want to fix this, but I do not think that is possible...
Also, the technique recommended in the video doesn't sound like something I can do since I don't feel like having to explain the weird noises to the other people in my house.
This is a really important point, but I don't think it requires $3500. Switching to an android phone and a portable split keyboard for most (non-programming) deep work resulted in a huge uplift in focus for me, and I really think it's because it made context switching more of a mindful, intentional act. These days I get way more focused writing done on planes/trains/cafes on 4 inches of screen than I think I've ever done on my instant-context-switch-keyboard-shortcut-for-everything tiling wm laptop.
The biggest question will be if it’s too much of a pain that I don’t want to use it at all.
I just wonder if the friction imposed by a new tool—which, in this case, is a net positive—will become less noticeable and therefore less of a benefit. Compared to something like a smartwatch, which has impassable constraints no matter how much you get used to it, or even an e-ink screen.
Apple seems to have made some important advances in passthrough, hardware and hand tracking occlusion. It seems they are probably 3-5 years behind Meta on UX and ecosystem. Meta also appears to be more advanced when it comes to gesture tracking and currently your hands can serve as both pointers and clickers quite well.
The Quest 3 UX is still very bad in some places and it is very buggy still. So is the AVP. This is all still early days.
The last thing I'll say is that the Q3 hand tracking is absolutely terrible compared to the AVP. It's not even close.
Will the Vision Pro trigger derealisation in schizoid/borderline people?
I found that reading glasses had a similar effect for me. It helped me focus on the book or paper I was looking at and made me less distracted by other people walking by. Of course, it's less useful at preventing computer-based distractions, since they're all at the same focal distance.
(I’m an ADHD person and happy to have a gadget that’s helped me Do Things I Usually Avoid)
Coming to terms with, not just the new advantages brought by VR, but also the new constraints, the new annoyances and workarounds - especially prevalent at the cutting edge of tech, as we all know.
Also I am not sure what the problem is that is unique to those with ADHD. The issues raised are the same for everyone.
The joy of ADHD is that issues that seem the same as everyone else's are often far more difficult/easy to manage.
Amazon is 30 days, and it has made 14 days look stingy this day in age.
A de facto standard in the US.
Some other countries have stronger consumer laws in place that define statuary return policies.
Making a purchase is very different from getting one to try. Beyond a 14 days return policy, you start getting abuse from people trying to exploit the exchange policy.
As many people say, 14 days is kind of a standard. Many companies have even fewer days so read the fine print before you buy. If you don't like the return policy, don't buy it.
If you absolutely have to have one on Day 1 but don't feel 14 days is sufficient, maybe evaluate why you need it on Day 1? Wait for some other people to have it in their hands, and the rentals/loans usually start a few weeks after launch.
How is it more wasteful than keeping something you're not going to use?
The wastefulness comes from the fact that the barrier to purchase is pretty low, given the ease of return, so one is more likely to buy an item which may end up in the trash in 14 days (30 for Amazon).
If I absolutely couldn’t return a product (aside from defects), I’d not buy a lot of items in the first place.
(I say this as someone who is guilty of plenty of “trials”).
I’m actually travelling through Japan right now, where one can visit a Yobadashi or Bic Camera, these stores are great, because all their tech is out and able to be played with, without explicitly getting assistance from a staff member. It’s obviously not the same as bringing a camera etc into the field to test, but it goes a long way in deciding if something works from an ergonomic perspective, before purchasing it.