Think of your home as (small) profitable power plant
bostonglobe.com
bostonglobe.com
"The total price tag for the entire home project was roughly $75,000, after rebates. But Tuttelman says it will pay for itself in about six years through energy cost savings."
The costs seem right. I've priced this. The savings are nonsense. I don't spend $75k in utility bills in six years.
"Other benefits include the stress savings of not having to guess when a furnace, which typically lasts about 15 years, is on its last legs."
My boiler is going strong after forty years, and the technician who looked at it last said this was typical and there's no reason to think it won't last another forty. I periodically need to replace a control board, which I should learn to do myself. In contrast, the system described -- with heat pumps, solar, and whatnot, has a lot more parts and things to go wrong.
I'm equally sceptical of the current direct environmental benefit. If I e.g. tossed out my gas-powered car and bought a Tesla, I'd have the environmental cost of manufacturing a Tesla. That would need to be lower than the environmental cost of the gas I'll use for the rest of the life of my car. I don't think it is.
There are reasons to buy this stuff (e.g. to support the green industry). That doesn't excuse the propaganda and the fake numbers.
But your boiler sounds interesting - if it is 40 years old it will be wildly inefficient compared to boilers from the last few years - on changing our 10yo boiler we saved about £100 a month across the year - But I only expect that boiler to last 10 to 15 years - but that is OK, by then I'm sure I'll be moving to electric heating and hot water, as I can only assume gas will be phased out.
Perhaps language issue?
My boiler heats the water for my radiators which heat my house. That's not the same as my hot water tank, which heats running hot water. Here, where modern ones do tend to leak less heat into the air, and these do have a limited lifespan as the tank corrodes.
Can you explain? I feel like the only way I could go up in efficiency is if I sucked in heat from the outdoors with a heat pump.
Older gas boilers (esp if 40yo) are likely to be less than 60 percent efficient, potentially far less.
Modern ones can be over 90% efficient - this was a big saving for me on my hot water and the gas power central heating radiators. With older boiler you lose a lot through the flue/exhaust, so it never gets to heat your house.
That actually seems like a very solvable problem with older boilers by adding something like a heat exchanger on the flue / exhaust. That should be a <$500 retrofit, and should bring efficiency up to >>90%.
I could build one for my house for <$1000 and <2 weeks work. I could do all the design work for one which could be manufactured at scale in <6 months and <$500 per unit (although I have no idea how much extra there would be for regulatory and similar work in this domain, and the NREs for getting a production line would be quite a bit extra too).
Short story is that a heat exchanger would add resistance to airflow, but that could be trivially countered with ... a fan. I could design a control system for setting fan speed to make it look like an unobstructed passage for <$30, but more likely than not, it'd be sufficient to just have a powerful enough fan to have more airflow than an unobstructed flue.
Disclaimer: I've done work in an adjacent field, and I'm confident about all of the above working. I can give you the parts list almost off-hand if you want a longer story, right down to the pressure sensor I'd use if I needed a control system. That said, I have close to zero background in civil engineering, regulatory requirements around things like this, and similar. My knowledge of thermodynamics and thermal engineering is also quite good, but my knowledge of HVAC specifically could fit on the head of a pin. I give the background so that you can decide whether or not to believe me. :)
Sounds like a great startup
I think it's probably worth doing, but I have a list a dozen long of better startups. The key risks around something like this as a startup are:
1) Regulatory and compliance. A lot of the reason things like this aren't adopted is here. I can point you to a dozen ways to build better homes which don't meet code which is written around things like inches between studs rather than structural integrity.
2) Dissemination. In order for something like this to be successful: (a) people need to know about it (b) installers need to know how it works. Most people have no idea what a heat exchanger is.
3) Fundraising. Building things is expensive, so this would be a raise in at least the single-digit millions to start an efficient production line. No one will fund you unless you've solved (1) and (2).
To give an idea of how hard consumer ignorance is:
I was working on a random home project. I could find just one appropriate heat exchanger being sold in my local hardware store, with Panasonic's brand power behind it. The hardware store itself doesn't know what it is:
https://www.homedepot.com/p/Panasonic-WhisperComfort-40-20-2...
Home Depot thinks it's a bathroom exhaust fan. It's an ERV, which is a super-fancy sort of exchanger which also exchanges / captures humidity. The manual says not to use this in a bathroom, kitchen, or similar since it literally doesn't work for blowing out humid air.... However, that's how Home Depot markets it.
I can ship the best product in the world, and no one will buy it if they don't know about it or understand it.
Pulling together a real business plan means thinking through problems like that. I can build this thing would be easy, at least for a good engineer. That doesn't mean one can make money doing so.
Talking with friends and family my bills are higher than normal, most are around $200 and less in the milder months. A quick search shows $469 being average us Utility bills and that includes water, trash and internet.
I would also like to know, what size the panels and battery are as well.
As to the battery the price gives us an idea of its size, $23,000 dollars. On the expensive side with a Tesla powerwall you get 13.5KW/h for about $9000, its possible to get about 2/3 that price with other systems. So somewhere in the region of 40-50KW/h of storage.
Hope that helps.
I lived in a house for 4-5 years where it struggled to stay cool in the summer and the bills would get up to $300-$400 a month as well.
One year I had an HVAC guy out to clean my unit and I was asking him questions (which I did every year) and this was the first guy to tell me when he generally sees issues like that it's insulation related.
He climbed up into my attic and recommended I add more insulation. I did so and the relief was shocking.
Obviously I understand how insulation can help but what shocked me was just how large a difference more insulation helped in a house that already had insulation.
Lessson learned that many times us technical folks know but don't truly understand. Every other HVAC person had just said the unit was on the small side.
So you may take a look at the insulation in the house, even something as laying more insulation in your attic may help tremendously.
Over here if you have an older house you can get subsidies or attractive mortgage rates if you spend it on improving your house's energy efficiency, it's worthwhile looking for schemes like that.
Actually I should look into that myself; I don't need to improve insulation, but switching to electric heating and adding solar panels and a heat pump would be interesting, especially given we need air conditioning during the hottest periods nowadays.
Additionally, why would most homeowners spend this kind of money when the vast majority of people only stay in a give house for ~7 years total? The incentives are great, but I don't see substantial changes happening unless it becomes a true no-brainer to replace fossil fuel systems and inefficient infrastructure (windows, roofs, insulation) with updated materiel. Blowing in more insulation is cheap and easy, but most Americans don't have a rainy day fund that would make replacing a furnace with heat pumps something they casually decide makes sense... or gas appliances with electric, or a new roof, etc.
In the UK at least batteries and an inverter are actually quicker to pay off using an economy 7 electricity tariff since power overnight is less than half the price of during the day and is typically from Wind power and imported Nuclear from France. That can pay off in less than 4 years and will last 10-15 with li-po.
If you don't have a roof to put solar on then there are some cooperative schemes where you can own part of a solar/wind installation and still save on your bill. A national one is https://rippleenergy.com/ but there may be more local schemes that you could help fund and get the payback from, residents are banding together to build solar farms all over the country.
The big energy companies have messed up this transition to green energy terribly and its considerably cheaper to make your own power than buy from them, which lets be honest it shouldn't be.
Installed 10Mwh system in 2021 for ~$40k.
After federal tax credits, SREC earnings, reductions in electric bills, and payments from electric co for over production, we have $7k left to recoup in only 3 years. And that ignores savings from the gas we’re not spending on charging the PHEV.
I know it’s a luxury to have, but there’s also some pride value (clearly!). Fortunate circumstance if you’re in the right place and have the cash. I wish the investment was more broadly accessible.
People didn’t like having 3 lane roads right in their path to walk to the grocery store.
The municipal solution was to ensure everyone needed to drive everywhere.
What “more” are you talking about? I’m very interested in this.
Ok… thanks I guess.
This is the only way to make these changes at the local level.
People simply do not want to engage because they either literally don't have time, or are taking that time to prepare for their next shift.
An idle society, somewhat more like what the French have (as one example), can be seen as in constant cycles of rebellion. This is the way it should be done.
I won't make value judgement on human beings, I will just judge the systems that they must function inside of. And a system that deprives you of time and relaxation is a way to subvert democracy on a very basic level.
If we were to repair this issue in the US, it would likely take generations to accomplish.
And now that it is the norm, are people defending it because they actually agree, or are they just afraid of change and too weak to fight it now that it is normal?
I notice bad ideas usually die with a few defenders, whose arguments can be summed up with "it just works for me" in the face of all evidence. Suburbs seem to be one of those concepts.
People can choose now, some like suburban life, some like city life. Maybe this is influenced by media (not many shows with young 20 year olds in suburbia, or families in the city. It’s typically teens - suburbs, 20s singles city, parents suburbs, empty nesters skew more city again. But maybe that reflects what people like.
The original comment was carefully worded to avoid any statement about whether suburbia was a good or bad deal for the people who want to live there.
Similarly to how protectionism and subsidies can be a good deal for those people who benefit from them, but still be a bad deal for the public.
Sure transit is cheaper than roads (and suburb costs don't count the cost of a car, while transit counts those costs), but roads are not that expensive over the lifetime.
But while some (young) people are fine with super-dense urban living, not needing a car, and rarely leaving their city, many people place a very high value on space, peace+quiet, and the increased freedom to travel that cars offer.
I find the ability to walk to my library or grocery store infinitely more freeing than having to buckle in to my car and drive to my destination. I like being able to hop on my bicycle and get out of the city, without having to navigate suburban style 45mph stroads. I like the actual peace and quiet as opposed to the leaf blower brigade firing up at 7am. This suburban lifestyle ain’t for me.
> I like being able to hop on my bicycle and get out of the city
You find it safer to bike in NYC or SF than in a quiet low-traffic suburb?
I did spend a lot of time biking in Manhattan in my youth but I wouldn't call it safe. Much safer cycling these days in the suburbs with low traffic.
1. Whatever suburb you live in is extremely unusual as far as suburbs go. Suburbs are almost defined by the lack of amenities accessible by foot. Hence the whole “15 minute city” thing. If you’ve got that in a suburb, that’s a great suburb.
2. There are cities other than New York and SF. For what it’s worth, I lived in NYC for a decade+ and rode my bike as my main mode of transportation for a lot of my time there. And the comparison isn’t even close. Yes. I absolutely find it safer riding my bike in Manhattan than in the quiet suburb I find myself living now. Infrastructure matters. And the infrastructure here is solely built for car driving.
I disagree. Every suburb I've ever lived in has had services within walking distance.
> Suburbs are almost defined by the lack of amenities accessible by foot.
Well... If you decide to define suburb by lack of walkable amenities, then of course by definition any place that's walkable isn't a suburb. Tautologically, so I can't argue with that.
But I will argue that this is not actually the definition of suburb!
> There are cities other than New York and SF
Sure but those are the top two densest cities in the US, so worth considering.
> Yes. I absolutely find it safer riding my bike in Manhattan than in the quiet suburb
Interesting. Well that's very different from my experience. Riding a bike in Manhattan is an extreme sport. I did it in my youth along with other risky things but in hindsight maybe a bit too much risk. Riding a bike out here in the quiet suburbs is a pleasure since there's so much less traffic and more space.
We sold the house after having the system for ~6.5 years, but we were tracking for a 9 year ROI. My cost was ~$23K out of pocket at the time, with power bills of $500-$800/mo., depending on time of year. I think our average daily consumption was 69Kwh, and the system produced the majority of that most days.
Assuming an average power bill of $600/mo., $23K would cover roughly 3 years of power bills. However, if the money was invested in a decent-ish portfolio, it would be earning some interest along the way, which could stretch what it covers to 5+ years. Anyway, when I did all the math, the solar panels never really made money, but what they did was smooth out our monthly expenses and gave some hedge against rate increases.
The new house is the same general area, and our use is about the same, but going to wait to see if solar takes a bigger decrease in cost before doing another array. It's mostly maintenance-free, but I did not output decline when the panels got dirty, and one panel died about 1 year after installation (and by then the installer company had gone out of business).
We had an electric clothes dryer, which would run a few hours a week. And electric oven and cooktop, which had minimal use (mostly cook outdoors). The only other large loads were an electric water heater and an elevator, plus a few PCs that were on 24/7.
During the winter, I keep the tub water plugged up for the heat pump to re-absorb... REDUCE, re-use, recycle, generate.
While Mass Save sounds really generous, it's being funded by everyone in their electric bill. So in a way, you've already paid into the program. You might as well get something out by calling up a Mass Save auditor and seeing what you can get out of it.
If I did a project like this, I certainly would max out a deal like that, and prioritize that payout over the duration.
If it was from a bank and 3+ years, I'd love to know how to do that too
It all has the prerequisite of owning a large and very expensive home. You need significant space for a solar(+battery) installation. Or for a heat pump.
Charging an EV at home requires you to have a garage or driveway, and we all know that public chargers are going to do a massive bait+switch, hiking prices way up once companies running them have established local monopolies and demand has built up.
Even a bike or e-scooter can be a pain to own without secure storage space if you've got to carry it up/down stairs each time you want to use it.
A garage or driveway or... a dirt 2 track also does the trick.
No need to overstate things.
I wish I had a standalone home (floor to roof and all in between) - especially in an area where the retrofits from the article were possible. I've been 11 years in my current place and now I _really_ know what to look for next time.
I suppose it's like anything: once you've spent enough time to see how small cracks will widen; enough time to know what gutter configurations will cause; where the architecture might collect rain and cause flooding; where rodents can find ingress -- once you're pretty battle-worn, a new house shines different.
My wife is looking at places and because I've run maintenance, we look at things quite differently.