GM Went All in on EVs. Dealers Say Buyers Want Hybrids | Hacker News Reader

GM Went All in on EVs. Dealers Say Buyers Want Hybrids

wsj.com

8 pointsgnicholas27 comments

The Chevy Volt was a great transitional vehicle, and I often wonder why they didn't build more cars like it. It had an all-electric drivetrain with a gas generator, which gave it slightly worse gas mileage than a true hybrid but had 50-mile all-electric range (300+ miles total), which was plenty for my daily needs. The only problem was an annoying bump with cupholders on top where the middle passenger would want their feet. If you want a city electric with the option to go on longer trips without worrying about charging, a used Volt is still an interesting option.

That said, I think all-EV is the right move even if it causes some short-term pain. Charging will get there before too long, and this lets GM focus their engineering effort. I imagine they've considered reviving some Volt-like cars to get them through the awkward transition phase.

I'm a late-stage early adopter and love my 2023 Bolt, which is quite popular and inexpensive—my sister got one, and then my parents got one too. They stupidly canceled the Bolt, but were wise enough to un-cancel it for 2025.

But they did make one really weird mistake: abandoning CarPlay. Why would they do that?

> CarPlay

They are trying to avoid Apple/Google getting too strong of a foothold as they don't want to be like how Google treats their Android partners.

Probably claims about user privacy and no need to involve a third party who is only going to collect data and profit off it.

That’s a double-edged sword. I will personally never buy another car that doesn’t support CarPlay.

I thought the new GM ICE was going to be developed by Google?

Depends on who you ask.

> According to [Tim] Babbitt, CarPlay and Android Auto have stability issues that manifest themselves as bad connections, poor rendering, slow responses, and dropped connections. And when CarPlay and Android Auto have issues, drivers pick up their phones again, taking their eyes off the road and totally defeating the purpose of these phone-mirroring programs. Solving those issues can sometimes be beyond the control of the automaker. You can start to see GM's frustration. Babbitt's thesis is that if drivers were to do everything through the vehicle's built-in systems, they'd be less likely to pick up their phones and therefore less distracted and safer behind the wheel. He admits, though, GM hasn't tested this thesis in the lab or real world yet but believes it has potential, if customers go for it.

- https://www.motortrend.com/news/general-motors-removing-appl...

> “The primary reason is that we’re looking to create a comfort level around the [EV] charging experience. With Android Auto or Apple CarPlay environments, the vehicle energy model or road segment data is sending energy usage and everything else associated with it to the phone, and it’s pretty difficult to off-board it from the phone,” Buffa explained. “So what we have built in[to the Blazer EV’s infotainment system] is really accurate data around battery health and battery monitoring and everything else that comes with it. And as you get into the mapping, it does route planning extremely well. For example, if we were to drive from here [San Diego] to Las Vegas, almost instantaneously the car is going to plot a route that looks at not just the state of the vehicle, but the state of the chargers along the route. It’s also going to start the battery preconditioning as necessary, so when you reach a DC fast charger, you’re actually at the optimal temperature to start using the full charging capacity.”

- https://gmauthority.com/blog/2023/12/heres-the-real-reason-t...

> GM projects annual software and services revenue opportunities in the $20 billion to $25 billion range from a projected 30 million connected vehicles by the end of the decade. OnStar is already the industry’s leading connectivity platform with more than 16 million connected vehicles on the road today, with software and services generating a projected $2 billion in annual revenue. Part of GM’s software and services growth comes from OnStar Insurance, projected to have a potential revenue opportunity of more than $6 billion annually by the end of the decade.

- https://news.gm.com/newsroom.detail.html/Pages/news/us/en/20...

I almost bought a tesla until I read the github site on how to inspect your tesla before accepting it (I live close to the factory). Because I don't want to spend 2 hours inspecting my car for basic fit and finish and other problems, I found out instead that Toyota makes a RAV4 plug-in hybrid and I bought that- they were nearly unobtanium but with some effort I found one for a not-unreasonable price.

I don't drive much and when I do drive, I typically stay within the hybrid's battery limits and recharge right after. I refill with gas about every 3 months. It's a rock-solid toyota that I expect to drive for another 5-10 years and then resell.

I can see folks with all-electric struggling with long drives- one guy found that nearly all the rechargers in tahoe ski resort parking lots were broken or in continuous use. The plug-in hybrid seems to be perfect for my use case.

You dodged a bullet with the Tesla. I know a few people that have them and they are a tragedy when there are issues. Tesla, as a whole, gives 2 entire shits, after the check clears.

A PHEV seems like the ideal vehicle to me. Most people's daily drives are probably around town, which will be all EV, but for longer trips you don't have to bother with slow, potentially crowded charging stations at limited locations. Initially I thought it's a bit of a waste to haul around an ICE that you won't use most of the time, but the alternative is a long-range EV hauling around a battery that you won't use most of the time. Seems like a wash.

100%. Plug in hybrids really do seem to be the best of both worlds, at the cost of some weight+space+complexity.

I wish they would go a step further and develop some kind of modular engine insert where you could put a gas engine in your frunk, plug it into the car, and run off the generator directly.

The problem with that would be weight, heat dissipation, and output wattage. I've seen some people carrying a diesel generator in their model x trunks for off grid Regen, but those don't have enough wattage to power the car while driving (nor does the recharge interface support such).

It's a lot of engineering challenges, but it would be cool to not bring the generator (ICE) unless you need it, and I like the redundancy of two power sources for the same drive train (and with motor per wheel, you effectively have multiple independent drive trains).

I really wanted to be a "good citizen" and buy a hybrid for my first car.

But I ran the numbers of how much I drive and the difference in their expected MPG, plus the cost and longevity of the hybrid system...and the math didn't work out. If I kept the car long term I'd likely pay much more in repairs and eventual hybrid battery replacement then I'd get back in terms of gas.

Same. I'm lucky enough to live in a walkable + bikeable area, and we love to do weekend getaways/road trips, so the majority of my miles are actually for the long distance case.

If I had more money I would have gone for the porche cayanne s (plug in hybrids which can tow a hefty amount for travel trailers, ironically the luxury brand is a turn off for me but it has the best stats for my needs), but I didn't so I got a Forester for 0% interest right before the chip crunch skyrocketed the price of cars but right after COVID squashed the price of cars. Luckiest timing ever given I was car free for the 7 years prior.

> GM to release plug-in hybrid vehicles, backtracking on product plans

https://www.cnbc.com/2024/01/30/gm-to-release-plug-in-hybrid...

Got a PHEV first, then an EV . Having both at the same time is nice, they have slightly different use cases (just like we've always had one 'large' car, one 'small' car). Can easily see going EV only within 5 years, and could do it now with little fuss if I had to.

I've enjoyed having a PHEV and would like to get another. But the price premium — which sometimes reaches over $10,000, is a bit much. My family drives very little, so this doesn't make economic sense for us. Perhaps I'll get a used PHEV, which might have a smaller premium.

I'd pay 10k over MSRP right now if they made a Toyota Sienna prime

In the same vein, I'd enjoy a Highlander Prime. The RAV4 is hard enough to find, so I assume a Highlander would have a years-long waitlist.

I really liked the Chevy bolt, but the lack of DC fast charging was a deal breaker and they didn't have anything special to make up for the lack.

https://archive.ph/txeal

I don’t understand why anyone wants a hybrid. The payback on. Hybrid is somewhere near 100-200k miles. Most people don’t own cars for that long

I don't even want a hybrid until car manufacturers pull their heads out of their asses and price them reasonably. Until then, they can fuck right off.

Paywall free link ?

Dealers and customers don't know what they want.

What's the old adage? If you asked customers what they wanted they'd have gotten a six legged horse instead of the automobile?

Right. Someone should have told Tesla that buyers wanted Hybrids over EVs.

I think part of the reason that GM is having a hard time finding buyers is that Tesla has successfully scooped up a lot of the early adopters. They were the first to scale their production, and then as other manufacturers got their factories online, Tesla cut prices aggressively to grab the next set of early-ish adopters. This has put the other manufacturers in a quandary: they can't achieve economies of scale because they're not selling many vehicles, and they can't sell more vehicles at their current prices because they're losing so much on each one. For example, Ford dramatically increased the price of their F150 EV, and then cut manufacturing capacity.

On a separate note, I bet if Tesla had made hybrids, they would have done a good job at that also. It is interesting to imagine a world in which Tesla was exactly the same (direct sales model), but was selling hybrids instead of pure EVs.

Hard to know if you're overfitting your explanation in the same way the majority of people though that Tesla was wrong before they created a huge market demand for good EVs.

Personally I'm not a Tesla fan and I'm holding out for a car manufacturer to make an EV I trust with a good reputation, low cost of ownership and good quality. Until then I'll stick with my non-hybrid Civic.

Not sure it's overfitting if this what exactly what I hypothesized would happen when Tesla started cutting prices aggressively. I'm sure I wasn't the only person to see this as their strategy.

Enjoy the Civic — I bought one new when they were revamped in 2006. Loved that thing (and the 40 MPG highway that it delivered, even back then)!

Add repairability to that excellent list.

I have too many friends with a story about waiting months for Tesla service. Even the ones that rave about how good they are in every other way admit that if something big goes wrong, it’s going to take too long. And the people I’m thinking of LOVE their Teslas.

Low cost repairs and easy parts availability for third party repairs is a deal killer for Tesla. They need to be more focused on it.

I had to replace parts on my Toyota recently. Walked into the dealership unannounced, chatted with the parts people, and they ordered my parts. They also told me about some fasteners I would need and made sure I understood how to fix it. Three days later the parts arrived, with fasteners, and it was done.

I really think Tesla is missing the mark on parts and repeatability.

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