Has it not afforded you the opportunity to pursue hobbies / travel / etc that you desire? Has your work never been interesting or given you a spark to learn new things about our world / universe / inner-workings of personal relationships? I believe it is much more about the journey than the finish line.
Asking about the "meaning" is reallly just asking: How does this affect ME?
Even asking this question is a demonstration of our species' general lack of appreciation for how outragously improbable our existence is.
Stop worrying about your "special purpose" and start being thankful that you're a winner of the trillion-to-one lottery that lets you sit here and think about these things...
How does this apply to the birth-rate issue? Simple, we need to intelligently manage our population size, which means having many-many less people on the planet...
A lot of religions/philosophies - Stoicism, Buddhism, Christianity etc. - are great for dealing with these problems for yourself, assuming you are already here. None, however, inspire the creation of new life to deal with this stuff. E.g. "Virtue is the highest good and its own reward" is great, but why create new life to have to deal with this if it can be avoided? It becomes circular and meaningless.
Any kind of dopamine-based pleasures are also somewhat degrading to one's humanity once you realize you're effectively being the mouse pushing the button, and are certainly far removed from having any meaning. What difference does it make how fast you were running on the hedonic treadmill if you're going to die?
What level or type of disaster would trigger it? Would you have had kids if you knew that the Black Death was coming or, being a Roman citizen, that the Roman Empire was going to fall? If you were a European in 1920, fully knowing the outcome of WWII, would you intentionally have kids? What if you only had models that these things were coming in a fuzzy way?
My father-in-law told me don't have kids. My brother-in-law sees climate change as catastrophic to any progeny, and my best friend views human life itself as an involuntary evil inflicted on children, but I have difficulties understanding their positions on an intuitive level. I get the reasoning on a rational level, but I don't have the gut-sense of it and it hurts my relationship with my family and friends.
Like, my position is that I'd like to think that I'd undergo torture for my kids, and that my kids would do so likewise for theirs recursively until the number of generations outnumbered the stars. From what I can see, living-on is the only thing that actually lasts--everything else will fall away, improve, and fall away again, including what we mean by being human itself, but procreation is forever.
How can I understand your perspective? Can I understand it? It would help me build stronger bridges if you (or anyone else) could help me intuitively picture it.
> Do you think unbeing is preferable to a potentially miserable life that would still likely result in them having their own children that didn't experience their own level of suffering?
It would depend on my confidence levels that N recursive generations would have better or worse outcomes. This may sound heartless, but knowing my kid has a better life than me only goes so far in making me feel like suffering is worth that. To me at least, humanity and the world is in a context that I don't see the problems that have caused suffering in my life improving, and while I've never been actively suicidal, the thought that eventually I will un-be again is extremely comforting, to the extent that I don't think I'd regret never-having-been, even outside the tautological that I wouldn't be alive to regret it.
> How many generations of potential suffering is required before having children is off the table? How many n+ future generations of having potentially joyful and regenerating lives would offset the former generations of suffering?
To me at least this question only relevantly includes "those alive while I'm alive." Whether my great great great grandchildren have an amazing time of it has very little bearing on my ability or desire to withstand suffering to achieve it. I realize this is philosophical and subjective.
> What level or type of disaster would trigger it? Would you have had kids if you knew that the Black Death was coming or, being a Roman citizen, that the Roman Empire was going to fall? If you were a European in 1920, fully knowing the outcome of WWII, would you intentionally have kids? What if you only had models that these things were coming in a fuzzy way?
It's less about a specific disaster and more "how much of your life will you get to spend on things that bring you fulfillment and happiness vs. things that cause suffering." If I had reasonably high confidence those specific things you listed were coming I would not have had children, and given my own family's history through those events, I would find myself rather justified in hindsight in doing so. (multiple prisoners of war, multiple international displacements, multiple individuals killed as civilians due to who or what they were.)
In the current context, it has more to do with the holistic "how much of human societal effort do we spend on improving our ability to find joy, actualize ourselves, pursue art, science, and betterment of all human life." And while I recognize that on many absolute measures (e.g. murder) we're better off, it seems to be in the sense of, yes, a society of individuals optimized to serve a relentless machine of efficiency operating a scale far beyond what human group psychology is well-built to interact with, will likely see those same outcomes, but I'm not sure it leads to a net-positive world. A reasonable rebuttal would be if I would ever in history have found life sufficient, given these constraints, and I'm not honestly sure. I can't put myself in a world where I don't have the knowledge and context I do now without feeling I'm lying to myself, but I do think that the presence or absence of the hope that things are going to be "better" vs "more of the same/worse" plays into it heavily (in which sense, innocence may have been bliss), but for better or worse in the current world I do not see the things I value coming any more into the fore.
(I had previously worked jobs that were much more relaxed, to try and leave me more time for the things I value, but finding out I had a chronic condition requiring regular surgery meant that this was effectively not an option, and in the long-term, I would have been in a precarious financial and life position sooner or later had I not anyway.)
> Like, my position is that I'd like to think that I'd undergo torture for my kids, and that my kids would do so likewise for theirs recursively until the number of generations outnumbered the stars.
This gets to the core of the difference between our perspectives, I think. I don't see any inherent good in this outcome. In fact, knowing what I do about human nature/human psychology, that outcome scares the hell out of me. If anything I see "I don't want to have kids" as the one real lever I have to push back against or not be a part of the perpetuation of systems that have gotten us to the point we're at. (While things like climate change are certainly important, to be clear, my lament is largely along things like consolidation of power, the iron law of oligarchy, capture of systems by special interests, and the overarching paperclip-maximizer/"angry tribes of apes" tendencies of humankind)
I have a 2 year old son now. His laughter is one of the most beautiful sounds in the world! I love watching him grow. Planning to have more, soon.
I live my life not for enjoyment but to try and leave the world better than I found it. If I can succeed in doing so (even slightly) then teaching 2 children to do the same would be my life’s greatest contribution.
I actually think the declining birth rate is rooted in the narrative that humans are ruining the earth. I believe we are making it better and more interesting over time.
I think this is unconvincing. People may cite this in a survey, but this is not how the vast, vast majority of people make a decision like this one. In my opinion, modernity has been increasing quality of life in developed nations for a long time, and recently it's begun a downturn - nothing can increase forever. It's not dramatic, but it is enough to cause a strong conflict with expectations, and one of the first things to go is the giving of your life to children.
If these things succeed in delaying child creation then you end up like me (if you are lucky) and pop out two kids in your late 30's with many miscarriages and discovering the third probably isnt happening with very expensive ivf and even then it is a crapshoot. If you are unlucky you find out you waited too long and indadvertently optedout of the gene pool, at which point the environmental thing is a c(nvenient excuse to use when asked.
There's also the dramatic cultural shift toward self-centeredness and self-fulfillment. "Follow your heart!" "Me time." "Self-care." In terms of caring for one's mental and physical health, this used to be framed such that you prepared yourself to be a useful and productive member of your family and society, not that you were doing it for yourself. The "follow your heart" nonsense emphasizes feeling over thinking, and seems to be aimed at much more, but also weighs in here.
Humans have been ruining the earth. But we need to raise better humans to fix it.
The difference is people who can segment feelings from impacting making logical decisions.
Edit: Or, you know what? I deny the entire individualistic framing. I think to actually make logical decisions about anything of substance, it takes more than one person. For things that don't matter, like what to eat for lunch or what book to buy, it's fine letting your emotions take the wheel.
I think the individual logical person is a myth. We're social animals. Logical reasoning is a collective enterprise.
Not everything in life is logical.
> I basically won the game
There are many ways to play this game, and I think it’s a bit early to declare yourself a winner if you haven’t even hit your deathbed.
It gives me a deep sense of satisfaction and joy to raise them, protect them, provide for them, guide them, and get to know them as they grow up.
Like you, I also work remotely. My career is fine. It pays the bills. I've been successful. But that's not where I find satisfaction now, and when I leave the workforce eventually it'll go on without me. The deeper, meaningful part of my life is what I've built outside of work - with my wife and kids, my family, my friends, and my piano and bass guitar.
It's horrifying & I hate hate hate how here in the US at least parents get no support, how impossible and expensive childcare is to manage. Being a parent feels like a huge overwhelming full time commitment.
And it terrifies me how many good interesting do-er adults the world loses to parenthood. Adults that would find interesting satisfaction & growth, that would bring meaning to the world, are wrapped up in miserable jobs they can't quit and running their child around.
Yes, it has huge personal meaning. And it's important in a macro sense for the species. But I feel like so much of the interestingness & possibility of the world is also lost to parenthood, that being a parent very quickly strangles out other transcendental journeys & questings that tend to be the best most inspiring parts of humanity.
It's important for children to see their parents have a healthy relationship with life that is independent of them. It shows them a model and gives them space to grow as their own person.
Childcare is definitely expensive. I'll have to work a few extra years because of it. That gets a lot easier after the first five years though, once they're old enough for public school.
And honestly, the transcendental journeys and questing you mention... I don't think that's really where satisfaction is found. I find the most inspiring parts of humanity come from the relationships we form and the people we help and love.
That's why the future is transhuman clones grown in pods by the state.
That's called depression, seek therapy.
I've faced all these (disability from a young age even) and as a result, I don't think there's any way I could raise children. Both because of my own issues make it seem challenging beyond possibility, but also because I wouldn't want to force a child to face the same problems I did. I very much believe to each their own on this particular subject, but if global fertility is "collapsing", then it seems like more people are coming to the same conclusion for one reason or another.
My point about being comfy, was the OP's self description of a blessed, wealthy, pain-free life. But this state of things is temporary, so to be sure one has the mental, emotional, and spiritual tools to accept life when one isn't living a comfy existence. The description of having kids, and of life itself being meaningless, is a signal that when life throws the OP a tragedy, the response will not be healthy.
Yes, I agree with you that you have to create some meaning in your life, make up something and convince yourself to believe in it, because there is hardly another option.
That’s a heck of a baseless assumption IMO. I’m not the OP, but I am in a similar position to them - in my case I have a sufficient amount of material stuff to be basically comfortable without excess; then beyond that I have friends, volunteering at community events, and working on open source projects, none of which feel particularly materialistic or selfish?
I too have had a rewarding career that has afforded me all kinds of comfort. I've traveled extensively, even living in a foreign country. I've met interesting people and done interesting things.
But there's something special about hearing your child say "dada" or "mama" for the first time.
Notice, though, I said "fulfillment" and not "happiness"; I find the lows are lower and the highs are higher.
I wouldn't call you "selfish" or "materialistic."
I would say that parenting requires sacrifices--time, most of all--and can cultivate a kind of de facto anti-materialism depending on the parenting style.
There's a reflection on the past where you think of yourself as less selfish now, since you are now locked into doing more for others. Never before did you have to suck snot out of the nose of a completely helpless being, clean human waste, or endure having your beard roughly tugged on because it got a giggle.
The childless thus can _feel_ "selfish" to parents since they typically don't do as much for others as parents do for their children / wives / husbands / etc.
But that doesn't make it so.