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Comment by yau8edq12i | Hacker News Reader

The worst offenders right now might be disposable vapes. I saw some sold with effing lcd screens built-in. For a disposable piece of crap.

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I'm waiting for the EU to ban these fucking things already. That and disposable power banks. Yes, you read that right.

Selling consumer devices with Li-Ion batteries that are designed to not be rechargeable, should be banned altogether.

Interesting thing about li-ion batteries, is they have much less lithium in them than disposable lithium coin cell batteries, and hold much more charge. If we're outlawing disposable li-ions we should outlaw those as well.

>If we're outlawing disposable li-ions we should outlaw those as well.

Except when your watch battery dies, you only dispose of the battery, not together with the watch, as is the case with those single-use vapes.

We're OK with disposable alkaline batteries, so what makes lithium worse? If anything, alkaline batteries might have a slightly worse environmental footprint due to the use of manganese.

The problem with lithium batteries is that they can catch on fire, but that's a problem only when charged (or charging). A fully discharged battery shouldn't do much.

> We're OK with disposable alkaline batteries, so what makes lithium worse?

No we're not. Disposable batteries should not be a thing anywhere, especially not in products where they cannot easily be removed by design. Alkaline batteries may not combust when damaged, but their internal juice leaking out is damn corrosive.

> A fully discharged battery shouldn't do much.

Even that is enough to light trash compactor trucks or the heaps on waste collection plants to fire. This shit is becoming a massive problem for the trash hauler and processing industry. One in Australia blames 35 (!) fires a day in the country... no surprise if 1.8 million of them are sold a week [1]. This is frankly insane, and the rise in trash fires directly corresponds with disposable vapes.

Additionally, we need every bit of lithium we can get for electric vehicles and other stuff. Not for throwaway devices.

[1] https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-12-02/qld-lithium-ion-batte...

should Apple be forced to produce batteries for 2001 clamshell ibooks?

Probably not, but I don't really see what that has to do with anything.

No but they should be forced to open up the specs after the manufacturer support ends, so that the free market can decide for itself.

Indeed these things are an abomination. I regularly find half consumed vapes at intersections where they have clearly been accidentally dropped and abandoned by cyclists. I have a nice collection of perfectly good lithium batteries.

> I regularly find half consumed vapes at intersections where they have clearly been accidentally dropped and abandoned by cyclists. I have a nice collection of perfectly good lithium batteries.

If true, then the hedonism and pleasure seeking (the homeostatic pleasure trap is a monkey trap) found within the big, global industrial complex is meant for a small set of secret hackers to take advantage of by collecting disposed "vape" or smoking pleasure devices for powering some cool nerd contraptions.

Don't be afraid to get your hands dirty when you pick up trash. Because capitalism produces treasure when it excretes its waste products.

You just have to be outside the capitalist world-system to do this cool trick.

Cyclists in your area are vaping while they ride?

Just spitballing here, but considering that at typical intersections, automobile traffic outnumbers cyclist traffic by at least 100:1, isn't it more likely that those vapes were throw out the window of a car when someone got frustrated they clogged or something? (I'm not a vaper, but I've heard of clogged vapes being a common occurrence).

I've collected a few of them and they are robust and rechargable batteries. A common battery is IP17350 1100mAh 4.07Wh (Date of manufacture the one I see on the one I'm holding is 20210613). Anyone got any idea to use them besides small flashlights? They also have a pressure sensor on the LED and a nice metal case pretty often.

Depending on the battery there are cheap AliExpress boards - or diy - to make tiny UPSes for a raspberry pi or other usb-powered device. I don't know for that specific battery; I have some that take 18650s, though.

One 18650 can get you several hours of runtime for a pi zero. The battery can cost more than the zero. The cheaper one cell UPS boards are about $2 (plus shipping).

An advantage of single cell UPSes is that you don't have to worry about balancing, which is a bit of a pain with scavenged cells.

I turn them in to my local battery recycler for further processing.

The rechargeable lithium batteries in those really doesn't fit the "lithium shortage" and "we don't have enough battery capacity to build an EV for everyone" narrative

One car has 4,500 cells - bigger cells than most of the vapes. So it really is a matter of scale.

How many cars does one smoke in a year though?

Hopefully zero! Still, if you replace your car (or its battery) every 10 years (pretty long IMO) and smoke one vape a day (yikes), you'll use more cells on your car than your vapes.

I hope someone who replaces their car every 10 years isn’t just sending the old one to the compactor when they’re done with it

For one, 10 years is a perfectly good used car for somebody, and for two with large EV battery packs we’d expect some lithium recycling effort

Disposable vapes don’t have either of those going for them, batteries go straight in the trash after one charge cycle

I would hope that too. I imagine that as long as the pack still works, most cars will be sold forward on the used market. If the pack fails (either due to cell death or a crash or whatever), I bet many of them will not be properly recycled, especially from the early days. Once most cars are EVs, recycling will probably get better.

Either way, it seems pretty unfair to assume that EV packs will be 100% recycled, while vape packs will be 0% recycled. One could imagine a sort of "core charge" for disposable vapes. Bring the vape back for recycling when you get a new one and get $2 off. This could even be done by law like California CRV for cans and bottles.

Do not give those guys ideas

The kind of people who can afford to buy EVs buy a new car what, every 3 years? So I guess about 1/3 of a car (or, using the numbers from another comment, about 4000 vapes' worth).

The car is recycled, while the vapes are sent to the landfill.

I thought a Tesla smoked them all..

I'll show myself out!

It does if the vape makers have an underpriced lithium source and don’t care about the pending lithium shortage.

they're just buying off-the-shelf cylindrical or flat-pack li-ion cells

A popular theory is that they use "QC reject" grade, as the batteries often have arount 800 mAh capacity, two times less than most basic commercial grade.

The lithium in those cheap disposable things are less "lithium" and more "metallic powder/paste that theoretically contains elements of lithium." It's not something you'd want to actually use in anything important like a car battery

Not true. "Disposable" vapes use commodity li-ion cells, of the same basic type that you'd find in a cellphone, a laptop or an EV. They probably aren't the best quality, but there's nothing unusual about the chemistry or packaging. Li-ion cells are the preferred chemistry because of the very high discharge rate - alkaline or primary lithium cells just can't deliver enough current. The cell is perfectly capable of being recharged, but some people prefer the convenience of a disposable device and manufacturers are quite happy to respond to that demand.

It's wasteful, I don't particularly approve of it, I expect to see a lot of jurisdiction ban disposable vapes, but nor do I think it's particularly egregious or meaningfully impacting on the commodity price of lithium carbonate.

https://hackaday.com/2022/05/05/2022-hackaday-prize-disposab...

some people prefer the convenience of a disposable device

I don't understand this. Instead of plugging it into a charger, they'd rather go to the store to buy another, or more likely order online and wait for it to be delivered?

it's the convenience. If they had the executive function to get them online, they would save money and get a reusable device instead.

I introduced a battery charger to a group of people that used disposable vapes and the knowhow to charge them. It changed the way they interacted with the vapes completely even saying funny high ideas like "we should patent this".

i don't have personal experience with this, but i imagine so, because if you plug your vape into a charger, you can smoke it in an hour or two, and if you buy a cigarette at the convenience store that's a block away, you can smoke it in two minutes

maybe you live somewhere without convenience stores

It actually fits the narrative pretty well

The materials for one EV battery can make ~30 e-bikes, and currently EVs are too expensive for most people.

The way to fix that and the way that industry is fixing it is to make batteries more efficient (higher-density, new anodes/cathodes) in parallel with making a bunch more of them (and mining more lithium).

If we succeed in making a $25k EV, the batteries used in those vapes will be _even cheaper_.

I don’t think it’s desirable and I find the waste appalling, but I do think that disposable batteries can only be expected to grow without intervention.

It takes around 850g of lithium carbonate to produce one kWh of lithium batteries. The current market price for lithium carbonate is about $14/kg. The base spec Tesla Model 3 has a 57.5kWh battery pack, so the lithium in the pack represents a cost of ~$685, or just under 2% of the list price of the vehicle.

A typical disposable vape contains about five cents worth of lithium.

https://www.irena.org/-/media/Files/IRENA/Agency/Technical-P...

Another post in this thread mentions 1.8 million disposable vapes being sold per week in Australia. So that corresponds to 131 EV batteries per week. Or roughly 48000 EV batteries per year. 87000 EVs were registered in Australia in 2023.

Make of that what you want, but disposable electronics to administer nicotine seem to be a major waste.

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