The Source of Europe's Mild Climate | Hacker News Reader

The Source of Europe's Mild Climate

americanscientist.org

74 pointsPaulHoule63 comments

This is going to be an uphill battle (international teacher's guide on comparing Japanese and British climates):

> "In the British case, even though the southernmost point of England lies some 300 miles north of the northernmost point of Japan, the Isles have significantly warmer winters, thanks to the Atlantic Ocean and its Gulf Stream, which carries warm equatorial water up the eastern seaboard of North America and thence eastward toward Ireland. This warmer water raises the temperature of westerly surface winds enough so that the Isles experience ample cold, winter rain but very little snow."

The article doesn't go into the basics of gyre formation in the ocean basins, which is driven by the Coriolis force and the global atmospheric circulation, but western intensification boundary currents (e.g. Gulf Stream) arise from that physical phenomena, and thus the Gulf Stream wouldn't be 'shut down' by large glacial meltwater releases, at most it would just be pushed south.

P.S. Land permafrost likely sequesters at least as much carbon as the deep ocean does during ice ages, and the whole 'oceanic conveyor belt' theory of how atmospheric CO2 drops during ice ages isn't as solid as some claim.

Wouldn't this same effect also lead to more potential hurricanes in the Isles as oceans continue to warm? I'm thinking something like Acapulco where Hurricane Otis rapidly progressed from a mild storm to a Cat 5 hurricane due to warm waters.

Strangely, though, the UK hasn't had too many hurricanes in its history, which is why I'm curious.

Edit: I may have answered my own question. Even with a higher likelihood of storms, I think the mountainous and hilly topography makes it hard for storms to really hit the UK, which might be why there have been few hurricanes in the past.

> the UK hasn't had too many hurricanes in its history

In other words: In Hertford, Hereford and Hampshire, hurricanes hardly ever happen.

Hurricanes need warm water to form and sustain themselves - not just relatively warm but absolutely warm. Like, 26 C. Minimum. Which doesn’t happen in the waters off the UK, Ireland, and France.

>Our conclusion was that the large difference in winter temperature between western Europe and eastern North America was caused about equally by the contrast between the maritime climate on one side and the continental climate on the other, and by the large-scale waviness set up by air flow over the Rocky Mountains.

Huh, when I started the article, the Rocky Mountains being the cause might have been the last thing I guessed.

I always thought it was due to the Sahara, I often read about how Sahara sands turn European cities Orange during sandstorms, you'd think the same could be said about the weather

We get the orange dump from time to time but its not like we get it often.

The one time last year? it fell on winter snow was the only time I recall in last decade+, and on glaciers this layer is still clearly visible. Not many others imprinted there, just few from past decades.

It's an interesting article but I have to say that I've come out of it without any clear answer other than "the gulf stream would give a few degrees difference at max"

Isn't a few degrees a lot though?

Yes, but the overall difference is more than a dozen degrees. Nearly all of it is accounted by the maritime weather (i.e. wind blowing from the water, which has more moderate variations in temperature than land) and by the "waving" of the prevailing winds caused by mountains in North America, which just so happens cause the winds to go south over land, and then turn Northeast over the Atlantic, bringing warm air to Europe... the relative contribution of the Atlantic Conveyor is much smaller than these other two.

The article explained that there are two roughly equal drivers: (1) Water is a better heat reserve than land, and winds tend to blow eastwards, so Europe gets air warmed by the sea and the US east coat gets colder air that's come from the land. (2) The joint effect of the altitude of the Rockies and the angular rotation of the earth mean that air currents are southeast over the Rockies and then northeast, so arctic air gets pulled down and then pushed back up over the US east coast.

I don't know how long I read looking for these answers. Tank-you for your service.

Does that mean that the air in Europe is warmed by the other seawater that is not part of the gulfstream myth and the cold arctic air gets pushed back to US while the warmer air stays in Europe? So in reality the mild weather in Europe is a result of the angular rotation of planet earth in combination with the Rockies altitude?

Or in short: Western Europe's climate is what you would expect from a place close to an ocean. Especially when by Europe you mean the island that's Great Britain. It's the US East coast that's weird, with a climate that's a lot more continental than you would naively expect.

When looking only at 3 continental coasts, 2 West coasts and one East coast, the East one is just weird seems like it is missing the point just stated.

It is worth noting that even for a West coast Europe is very maritime because in addition to the Atlantic it has the North Sea and Baltic kind of in the middle of it, and the Mediterranian to its South. And because people (including this article) like to take either Spain (sitting on a peninsular) or Great Britain (an island) as points of reference. And the (upper half of the) US East coast is very continental even for an East Coast, because of the effects of the Rockies mentioned in the article.

But overall the point the article tries to make is that people like to say that Europe is unusually mild when really people just compare it to the wrong places (with the US East coast being a popular and uniquely bad comparison du to the reasons summarized by GP).

a few degrees is a lot, globally a few degrees less means ice age

Or Paris getting about as cold on average in winter as Washington DC

I hate to ask for the TLDR but I kind of tapped out half way through.

Anyone know the answer?

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39157963

> England is blessed with its pleasant climate

Two sentences in and I already have a thousand questions.

England does have a pleasant climate, rather conducive to human life, both globally and especially among its peer latitude locations. Is your quip that it's dreary and rainy often?

We Brits are grumpy at the moment from weeks of storms, snow, -10c to 5c temperatures, wind, rain, short days...

Nobody (edit: here) would call it 'pleasant' right now

Fingers crossed for a 35c-40c heat wave in summer ... what with our uninsulated houses without AC !

Here in Canada we just got through a cold snap that had temperatures down to almost -40c so... I would definitely call that pleasant :)

Ah hah I did mean "nobody here". I can't think of a single friend or family member who isn't depressed by the weather and ready for it to be over!

Of course, we shouldn't ever complain about anything as there are children dying in Africa :) ! /s

Yeah it's been freezing where I am too, around 15c during the day.

Sounds like you guys need to start doing the wim hof method :) you actually start to appreciate the cold

Embarrassingly so. When we start complaining how cold it is because it went below freezing in winter, we really must look pathetic to Canadians, Finns, Russians etc.

We also start having people saying things (and writing articles) about how the remember how much worse it was in 1965(?).

Warm summers just lead to more moaning that gives a different lot of countries a chance to laugh at us.

I suppose I should be grateful there are not many people who can go on about their memories of the summer of 1911.

As always, remember to consider humidity when compararing locations - it can make both cold and hot weather feel much harsher. I'm more comfortable in 40c at low humidity than 25c at 90%. The UK experiences much more of the latter.

Right! I've met quite a few Australians who say how annoying and muggy 25c is in London compared to 25c in e.g. Melbourne

I think the point is that that’s fairly unusual, tho, whereas if you look at places on the same latitude, they’re normally far, far worse, every year.

Heck, it's broadly comparable to the PNW, but drier, and I consider PNW to be pretty pleasant all considered.

Compared to Finland it seems pretty great...

Sure, but nobody described Finland's climate as "pleasant" either.

Nine months of winter followed by three months of bad weather

Well it’s at same latitude of Quebec, so compare winters in both places.

It has milder climate, but milder does not mean pleasant.

Quebec is pretty big so this doesn’t tell the whole story. To picture it as an American, travel from dC to Boston (known for its cold winters). Then keep going the same direction for the same distance again. You’re deep into the northern wilderness, but at the same latitude as the UK, which has a comparably balmy climate.

ChatGPT says: "If you travel from Washington D.C. to Boston and then continue in the same direction for the same distance, you would arrive at a point with the approximate coordinates of 45.80°N latitude and 64.73°W longitude. This location is in the Atlantic Ocean, southeast of New Brunswick and Nova Scotia, Canada."

Quebec is a pretty big province (with almost the whole population in the south part anyway) but also a city. I guess an American can easily picture the location of Montreal 45.5°N (30 miles north of New York/Vermont) or Quebec City 46.8°N (70 miles east of north Maine). Both are quite south of London (51.5°N) or Paris (48.9°N). (For reference, most of the US-Canadian border runs along the 49°N parallel.)

This is exactly the wrong time to use a LLM. Case in point: those coordinates are not in the Atlantic ocean.

Ah, you're right. I was too lazy to check. (I also don't know if the calculation of the coordinates is correct.)

Definitely not "southeast of New Brunswick and Nova Scotia" because it's in New Brunswick and a few miles west of Nova Scotia.

Doesn't seem "deep into the northern wilderness" either, it's five miles from the sea.

I assumed it was a literary reference to Blake:

    I will not cease from Mental Fight,
    Nor shall my Sword sleep in my hand:
    Till we have built Jerusalem,
    In England's green & pleasant Land.

The British, broadly speaking, are familiar with this quotation (the poem was set as a popular hymn); when they refer to the climate as pleasant, it's somewhat tongue-in-cheek.

Had the same feelings. I always expected UK to have this "famous" mild climate.

After I moved there, I don't understand the trope. It's extremely windy and humid.

Has the author ever been to The Netherlands. I wouldn’t consider that climate “mild”

Have you ever been to anywhere in North America at the same latitude as Amsterdam? Summer gets above 30 C and winter gets below -10 C, with frequent extreme weather events like thunderstorms, wildfires, "nor'easter" blizzards, even hurricanes once every few decades. European weather at the same latitude is comparatively much more moderate.

Is this valid also for places in US directly next to oceans? IMHO ocean shores are pretty mild in places all over the world in those lattitudes I've visited.

We also have harsh dry continental weather in Europe, you just have to move a bit more east, Russia starts to have its meteorological say.

Ie my own Slovakia has generally much lower humidity compared to say Switzerland or France, summers and winters and everything in between. Younger back home I've skied in -30C, and also experienced above 30 regularly during summers.

This is coming from decade and a half spending here in the western Europe. Coming home say on Christmas is always quite a shock for my breathing aparatus, more humidity simplifies breathing and infections.

The US Eastern coast has a generally more extreme climate than the European west coast. The prevailing wind patterns are west to east so the harsh continental air is blown over the US East coast and the relatively warmer Atlantic air is blown over Europe.

The US west coast is mild near the ocean, but quickly hits mountains and the Eastern side of those mountains has a much more extreme climate. Seattle has a climate not too different than London and much more mild than Boston.

"9 meses de invierno y 3 de infierno" (9 months of winter and 3 of hell) - an old saying from my old city in Mainland Spain. -5C in winter, 40C in summer. Also thunderstorms, golf-ball sized hailstorms, prolongued droughs and quite a few wildfires.

Is that extreme enough by your standards?

NL is quite mild no? It rarely goes down to -10C or so.

It's my first winter here but it's extremely mild I'd say.

And this winter was very rainy and cold compared to average.

Historically would it not have been colder given how rarely canals freeze now?

What's your yardstick? I'd say the Netherlands is pretty mild compared to a lot of places.

Snowfall is fairly uncommon and the average is maybe 10-inches a year in Amsterdam. Summers are fairly moderate.

So, yes, I would say it had a mild climate compared to most places. If you're looking at Mediterranean climates, there are very few of those.

It absolutely is a mild climate, when compared to other continents. Netherlands is located roughly between the latitudes of Calgary and Edmonton.

North Americans are used to more extreme climates... by their standards The Netherlands is very mild.

It's one reason why parts of California are so attractive to a lot of people. By their lights, no place else in the US (or Canada) has an acceptable climate year-round.

Also ready access to variance in temperatures. Its possible to surf and ski in one day with a brief stop in the mojave desert in between.

Whatever issues I have with California, the climate and nature overall are hard to beat relative to just about anywhere on the planet.

Not sure what "anywheres" are you including in your comparison but when it comes to variety geographical extension matters. California is larger than Japan or New Zealand (it's also more compact though).

You can do the same thing in Oregon, and you can do it 365 days out of the year (if you ski at Timberline). And there is no desert in between.

Bring a wet suit for the surfing.

There isn't any milder climate. Both summers and winters can be 10C and rain and wind

You have to compare the same latitudes. For example New York and Madrid are roughly equal and New York has clearly the much harsher weather.

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