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How can something be so wrong and still being upvoted on HN is totally beyond me.

From [1] ( The Link you referenced )

>This $1.1 trillion breaks down as $910 billion in total billings and sales from the sale of physical goods and services, $109 billion from in-app advertising and $104 billion for digital goods and services.

They take 15% to 30% of $104 Billion. That is at best $31.2B. In case this isn't even clear. Apple collect ZERO on the $910 physical goods and services such as Uber and ZERO on the $109 In-App Advertising revenue.

>~80% margin on $165-$330B revenue in 2022 would be $132-$264B. So my original number of $100B may actually have been on the low side.

It is 80% margin on the at best $31.2B revenue. Not the $104 Billion Sales.

Apple reported FY 2022 Services Revenue as $78B. You cant have a Net Profits more than your total Services Revenue Income.

> How can something be so wrong and still being upvoted on HN is totally beyond me.

People can upvote something because of various reasons. I don't lurk around and upvote only "correct" comments.

You're off by an order of magnitude there.

If 90% of billings were commission-free, that means $110 billion had Apple's commission applied to it. 110 * 0.3 = 33 billion of revenue at most, or 16.5 billion if we use the 15% commission.

It's interesting that Apple seem to be including (estimated) sales of physical goods (i.e. Amazon) and subscriptions (i.e. Netflix) that are billed entirely outside the App Store.

I guess that since those apps came from the App Store to begin with, they are counting that as revenue that the App Store "generated"? Talk about playing word games.

According to the TC article you linked, Apple previously released this figure phrased as sales that it "facilitated"[1]. A much more accurate, and far less braggadocios descriptor.

Maybe I'm being pedantic, but I see a huge difference between "generated" and "facilitated". Bad Apple.

[1]https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2020/06/apples-app-store-ecos...

>a huge difference between "generated" and "facilitated". Bad Apple. //

You're spot on.

Seems more like "this is the money we weren't able to use our monopoly to extract value from, aren't we soooo altruistic!".

From the techcrunch article:

> Apple also said iOS app developers have earned more than $320 billion on the App Store from 2008 to 2022, a jump from the $260 billion reported in 2021.

> Apple says its App Store ecosystem generated $1.1 trillion in developer billings and sales in 2022

I'm having a hard time reconciling these two statements. It's been a long day, but what am I missing to make sense of this?

Apple is being disingenuous. The App Store didn't "generate" those "billings and sales". That number includes physical goods and subscriptions that didn't go through Apple.

They used to report this number as sales they "facilitated". A far more accurate descriptor. But now that they are engaged in a PR battle with various governments they have taken to embellishment.

https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2020/06/apples-app-store-ecos...

Apple is including money developers make that they don't get a cut of.

For example, Spotify makes money from people streaming music to iOS devices, but they do not allow you to upgrade from a free account to a Premium account through their iOS app.

Since Spotify handles subscription purchases outside of their iOS app and their app is free, they pay nothing to Apple under the current system.

Isn't Spotify one of the "special" companies that Apple bent to and gave an exception just for them?

Afaik, pointing users to subscriptions and payments outside of the app is explicitly not allowed. Telling the user it's cheaper to buy outside the app is not allowed, etc. Such blatantly predatory rules, I'm surprised it's taken this long for a wider discussion to start about it.

I guess it's because whenever you ask people that buy Apple gear they're all "That's fine! Don't you shit talk Apple, they can do what they want! They do what's best for us!" Stockholm syndrome lmao.

> Isn't Spotify one of the "special" companies that Apple bent to and gave an exception just for them?

Nope. Under the old rules any company with a free app used to access subscription content didn't have to pay anything unless they took payments through their app.

Netflix would be another example.

> pointing users to subscriptions and payments outside of the app is explicitly not allowed

It's definitely allowed now, since that's the only point on which Epic won their case vs. Apple.

"Ecosystem" is the weasel word that gives Apple a ton of wiggle room in that statement. I don't think they are just counting direct payments to Apple.

Uber, etc adds to the $1.1 trillion number, but not the $320 billion number.

https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/320193/0000320193230...

>The Company’s total net sales were $383.3 billion and net income was $97.0 billion during 2023.

Because $97B is < $100B, it is impossible for AAPL to have earned $100B net income just from the App Store (because we also know its other divisions do not lose money, again according to the 10-K they filed).

You can put an even stricter limit on it than that - net sales for services is listed as $85B, and they state

> Therefore, the Company accounts for all third-party application–related sales on a net basis by recognizing in Services net sales only the commission it retains.

So the commissions are <=$85B. Given the $1.1T number is from Apple, that implies the average commission rate is <15% (many categories of app excluded from commissions perhaps?).

They list gross margin for services to be $60B but I don't see where they break down net profit with greater granularity or "per division" (the word division does not seem to appear in the 10-K). For example they could make $80B in App Store commission, sell $5B in other services, make $80B in profit from commission, but lose $20B on other services, and that would still be consistent with the numbers in the 10-K, right? And those numbers presumably don't include indirectly related operating expenses which totaled $55B.

Apple has not revealed how profitable the App Store really is, but either way it's a LOT of profit, certainly enough to warrant expensive attorneys and stalling implementing this legislation in good faith for as long as possible.

>Nobody knows how profitable the App Store is to Apple.

Which country do they hide their business in that doesn't require accounts be published on a business's principle activity?