Researchers find signs of intelligence among jumping spiders
knowablemagazine.org
knowablemagazine.org
If anyone is interested in this topic, I highly, highly recommend the book “Ways of Being” by James Bridle. [0]
It covers such a diverse range of ideas about intelligence, including neural network–style intelligences, that I think pretty much everyone would find something of interest.
One of the takeaways is that these intelligence-seeking experiments have been poorly designed for so long, that they tend to reveal way more about the humans running the experiment than the animals being researched. And part of that is due to how uncomfortable we are with admitting that animals have completely different (not better or worse) ways of being and thinking than us.
It makes you aware of the limitations of our hierarchy-and-comparison-based concepts. For example, even a simple phrase from this article:
> Although spiders can’t literally count one-two-three, the research suggests some jumping spiders have a sense of numbers roughly equivalent to that of 1-year-old humans.
The experiment doesn’t really prove that spiders can’t count, and surely if they did count it wouldn’t be by speaking out loud like we do. Saying that their faculties are equivalent to 1-year olds only really serves to diminish them. Not that I’m blaming the author, it’s just so easy to accidentally slip into these very limited ways of thinking.
There is very easy to prove spiders can count. They can tell bigger object from smaller, so they have some concept of measure and comparison. They can tell 10 is bigger than 2 and so on.
The rest is only how precisely they can count.
They make decent pets, or so TikTok has convinced me.
https://rifters.com/real/2009/01/iterating-towards-bethlehem...
> Here's the thumbnail sketch: we have here a spider who eats other spiders, who changes her foraging strategy on the fly, who resorts to trial and error techniques to lure prey into range. She will brave a full frontal assault against prey carrying an egg sac, but sneak up upon an unencumbered target of the same species. Many insects and arachnids are known for fairly complex behaviors (bumblebees are the proletarian's archetype; Sphex wasps are the cool grad-school example), but those behaviors are hardwired and inflexible. Portia here is not so rote: Portia improvises.
> But it's not just this flexible behavioral repertoire that's so amazing. It's not the fact that somehow, this dumb little spider with its crude compound optics has visual acuity to rival a cat's (even though a cat's got orders of magnitude more neurons in one retina than our spider has in her whole damn head). It's not even the fact that this little beast can figure out a maze which entails recognizing prey, then figuring out an approach path along which that prey is not visible (i.e., the spider can't just keep her eyes on the ball: she has to develop and remember a search image), then follow her best-laid plans by memory including recognizing when she's made a wrong turn and retracing her steps, all the while out of sight of her target. No, the really amazing thing is how she does all this with a measly 600,000 neurons— how she pulls off cognitive feats that would challenge a mammal with seventy million or more.
> She does it like a Turing Machine, one laborious step at a time. She does it like a Sinclair ZX-80: running one part of the system then another, because she doesn't have the circuitry to run both at once. She does it all sequentially, by timesharing.
If you like this kind of thing, check out Watts' novel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blindsight_(Watts_novel)
I just wish one day someone will be able to turn it in a video game or a movie so I can understand how alien those aliens really are.
This is notably also adored by Watts https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HW7_1J9clAA
In case you want to fall down into the rabbit hole then https://blindsight.space
Now I just wish that some serious producer like Nolan would get a hint.
It's been half-read on my nightstand for months now because it just didn't interest me very much halfway through. Yet I read the first one twice.
> It carries a crew of five cutting-edge transhuman hyper-specialists, of whom one is a genetically reincarnated vampire who acts as the nominal mission commander.
Space vampire eh?
They are obviously tiny, but I wouldn't have imagined what titans we must be from their perspective.
It'd take entire nations years of effort to build a gun or rocket that could even hurt something that much bigger than us.
Could a spider-sized human intelligence build a rocket to go to the moon? Would it have been easier to develop our civilization if we had been as large as a whale?
Maybe the universe is teeming with life a little too large or too small to build an ultra-technologic culture, or space travel. Imagine how long it would have taken us just to explore the Earth if we had been spider-sized, with spider legs and spider eyes.
I don't think we understand intelligence well enough even on Earth to do something like that. For example, these spiders seem to have certain cognitive capacities beyond what a hippopotamus can do, even though the hippopotamus is obviously much larger. Even in a single genera, the intelligence of mammals or even just apes doesn't seem to scale with size or brain size.
There did seem to be some correlation between intelligence and the ratio of brain size to body size, but even that is not well established, and it is not clearly evident why it would matter. And, as others are pointing out, many studies of animal intelligence are actually deeply flawed, so perhaps we have just been measuring very wrongly.
I suspect without doing the maths that their rockets would still be similar in size to ours, because of the fuel required to achieve escape velocity, and the good old rocket equation. But they would certainly be able to fit a lot more spidernauts in.
"Sir. I will follow any legal order, but I will not countenance the destruction of the entire shrub."
Imagine living on top of an elephant. I guess you would attend to its skin and health, in exchange for a great defensive position, free transport, the potential to live off dying cells and moisture, etc.
Fast forward a very long time, and you might have humans controlling all the animals of the wild, which would have developed their own ways of survival, territory and rivalries. Animals which lack this 'army' of humans tending to them would die out. Wouldn't be so different to now...
The most interesting interaction I had was watching one hunt a fly. The fly landed, and it crawled down on the side of the board the fly was on, out of sight. It emerged behind the fly, then snuck up on it, similar to how a cat does (move, pause, move, pause). Then, when it attacked, it didn't jump at the fly, but jumped up in the air where the fly would be. It grabbed onto the flys back, then rotated, so the spider landed on its back, so the flys legs would be straight up, so it couldn't try to crawl away. It bit its neck area, waited a bit, then dragged it away. Really amazing, especially considering the fly was about the same size as the spider's body.
The larger ones though I politely but firmly invite to leave.
Not only are they cute (the have a fuzzy look about them) but they tend to eat the stuff we hate. I tend to have one or two in my back yard almost every summer.
I could do with out the black widows
I played Grounded and I swear that game fucked me up.
https://scontent-lax3-2.cdninstagram.com/v/t51.2885-15/31236...
Easily my favorite little critter.
Edit: I can also jump!
And, you have simple fixed zoom balls for eyes, where they have muscles that point little telescopes [3], that pivot at the eye hole, each with two lenses, allowing control of focus and magnification.
Crazy video thanks for that.
They're not insects at all. They're spiders.
Edit: Here's an evolutionary tree: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthropod#Evolutionary_history.... Insects are a group under "Hexapods", and are more closely related to crabs, lobsters, shrimp, centipedes, and millipedes (none of which are insects) than they are to spiders, which are under "Chelicerates".
Given how much meat we as a society consume, and how we treat animals generally, it makes sense that we'd collectively accept and yearn for a narrative that animals are dumb. I think science is steadily showing that this is not really the case.
The lack of science on this matter is not the reason we still consume meat and more science won't change anything.
We've always found ways to justify/accept our need for meat and wel'll continue doing this as long as science doesn't find an equally nutritious alternative that can be produced at scale.
Anyone who's ever had backyard chickens knows they are not intelligent. Nature gave them a brain to keep the spinal cord from fraying.
But chickens have a social order, keepers say, and more complex behaviour than a naive city slicker might expect. They may not be grandmasters, but they aren't completely stupid.
Its first episode, "The Big City", includes many very beautiful filmed sequences with jumping spiders.
Spiders react to different environmental factors and have to make decisions.
I used to play with a cat as a child, never had a problem, and then one day, for no reason, I got bitten.
And it happened again and again!
No complaints, would grow up with a cat again.
Driving a car through a bunch of mating insects? Who cares right?
That problem has been solved but not necessarily in a good way: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windshield_phenomenon
Regardless of the size I quite like them, many are quite pretty and fascinating to watch.
I can’t believe how frequently I have to say this to people: instinct is far from reason.
If you know something about berries, like this species is definitely poisonous, and this species is definitely safe, and this species you don't know anything about, then it is perfectly safe to avoid the first and third and indulge in the second.
I've certainly never found them even a little bit frightening. I've definitely felt like "someone's home" but it's probably the big eyes bias.
https://www.cbs.mpg.de/Fear-of-spiders-and-snakes-is-deeply-...
On the one occasion where I found an infestation too extensive to relocate (under almost every one of my outdoor chairs), I tried bug spray. Horrible. Thanks to CA's hysterical bans on everything, the spray is ineffective and merely tortures the spiders and often leaves them alive but maimed. I felt terrible. Never again.
Anyway, now I just blast these areas with a hose from time to time. Individual spiders I will relocate if they're in an area where people are likely to sit.
There's a tiny baby spider roosting in my oven hood right now. The two last evenings he has descended on a web to look around. I considered putting him outside, but it's too cold so I just let him return to his hiding place.
Over the last ten years I went from smashing every bug I saw in my house to taking a moment to carefully scoop it up with paper or a cup and then take it outside. Most bugs (at least in my area) are safe to handle. Instead of seeing them as a threat to be destroyed, I recognize that they are innocent creatures that have no desire to mess with me, and I can serve as a steward to move them somewhere more acceptable.
There are some exceptions - pest creatures which nest in your walls or go after your food which must be exterminated to ensure a safe living environment for your home - but most often I just find little bugs trying to do their own thing, and I take a moment to provide them a little care so we don't get in each other's way.
I think this mindset helps me be more respectful of all living creatures, rather than presuming I have the right to kill those which I dislike.
But yeah, other bugs get carried away. And I also don't touch cobwebs. I'm actually really scared of spiders, but I know that they'll not hurt me and provide kind of a service, so I'm fine if they hang around.
Wasps are another exception. Immediate kill, no patience for these fuckers. Bees are fine, of course, way less aggressive. I know that wasps are useful as well, but I don't feel like handling them when they decide to visit my apartment.
Don't even want to imagine what exposure therapy would be like for this :D
As an aside, at a younger age I shared your aversion to syringes. It wasn't the adminstering per se, but the perceived lack of control. What helped me was realising that 23 hours, 59 minutes and 55 seconds out of the day, I am in control -- those 5 seconds of needling (if that) pale in comparison.
Each time became easier after that. I hope you are able to overcome your aversion.
> I hope you are able to overcome your aversion
Yeah, I hope so too. Thanks for the empathy. I've actually overcome my fear of vaccines. I can't sleep that well the night before and I'm still sweaty and stressed, but I know that it will just hurt a tiny little bit.
Giving blood samples is actually the big issue. I've had two of those as a kid, both times I became unconscious and once I had to throw up. Also had general anesthesia three times as a kid, I guess these five times where a needle had to go into my arm just traumatised me in some way. I hate the pain it gives me and the whole experience just really stresses my out. I'm actually getting sweaty palms right now, just because I'm writing/thinking about it :D
I recently went to the doctor because I started getting migraines. Doctor recommended me going to a Neurologist and mentioned that they would probably have to take blood samples, which was the reason that I refused. I just couldn't handle the thought of having to do it again.
The last blood sample I had to do was as a young teenager, like 10 years ago. I know that you should frequently test your blood to spot deficiencies, but I'm simply too scared...a bit embarassing to be honest. I've actually considered asking them to just give me nitrous oxide so that they can do it while I'm unconscious :D But I think nitrous oxide is an american thing, never heard of someone getting it where I live.
Anyways, no real sense to what I wrote, I just felt like documenting my thoughts about this situation. Actually feel quite queasy now. Time for some fresh air.
You have agency in this situation and should inform and communicate your anxieties to any attending nurse or physician, possibly in advance. There are guidelines and support protocols in place exactly because of the strangeness some medical procedures invoke.
At the same time, their (slight) discomfort is the 'price to pay' for a mind at ease. My advice: try and rationalise it to a fault. I'd wager millions have blood works taken each day, and are only better for it. You will be among them.
Dare I say, I've even learned to be intrigued by those little vials whenever I have my blood works done -- so much information can be gathered from so little. A life in need can be a beneficiary from less than a minute of your time.
Don't let the imprints of your childhood define you. There is much else to gain.
Very well said :) Appreciate it!
I used to have a particular fear of jumping spiders, I blame the film "Arachnaphobia", I don't know why I agreed to see it, I was petrified the whole way through. I can handle it now, I made a point of trying more media that had spiders in them, from b movies to documentaries to photos.
But I don't think I could handle any of the bigger ones in the wild still, like tarantulas, or the absolutely massive Orb spider I saw in Africa once, ugh..
Humans are also found to be more complex/intelligent/sophisticated than was thought, given AI goalpost moving.
If you've ever spent an extended period of time with any animal, you know that they all have different personalities and opinions that differ from other animals of the same species, eerily similar to humans. They truly are different people. Some are shy. Some are gregarious. Some are brave. Some are lazy. Some are dumb. Some are mean. They're all different.
I don't really know how to reconcile this feeling and I'm very much an omnivore but the thought is inescapable to me.
In order for you to keep living, something with a unique personality, opinions, and desires has to die. And that includes plants.
I'm an energy well. They are an energy well. I can't hold off the march of entropy if I don't bring in more energy. So I absorb their well into mine.
Until we figure out how to integrate photosynthesis / photovoltaics into our bodies its not worth stressing out over the necessary survival process of killing other living things.
We have very little reason to believe that a bean plant is sentient and experiences suffering to a comparable level like a factory-farmed chicken. It actually seems absurd.
(I eat meat, this is not a holy war for me.)
Of course you can try to minimize the sentience of what you eat - wheat < ants < pigs < people - which may be better than nothing, but I'm sure you've thought of that.
I heard of a small religion that eats only nuts and fruits, with the belief that the plants want them eaten - they evolved to make the nuts and fruits desireable in order to spread the plant's seeds. It's arguably still exploitation: The plants evolved that way because it is the least bad option among predators.
I feel there is some truth to this. Eventually, your body will be consumed by insects.
Basically all animals, and even plants (living creatures too) are going to die horrible deaths, being ripped apart by predators etc. We too, will likely be food for worms.
The point he is trying to make is to celebrate the life of whatever you're eating by at least making something special out of it an enjoying it rather than turning it into fast food junk which pointlessly ends up in the trash after 10 minutes in the burger warmer or whatever.
The context was, even killing plants is wrong, so we should cook and enjoy those to the best of our ability.
You can say "plants aren't self-aware" or something, but there's no way out of it. Plants might even be home for insects or other creatures which die when you take the plants. Plants are living organisms and you shorten a beetroots life when you tug it out of the ground.
I think the point still stands. Be grateful for each meal and do your best to enjoy and savor it. It's not about "celebrating killing" you injected that into it. It's about showing respect.
Meat eating and tool use, borne out of the need to maximise the amount of calorie-dense food available are the reason we are here today discussing the finer points of vegetarianism.
Instead of being a blind zealot, I try to understand that life is a series of paradoxes and compromises. Balancing the fact that meat is good for me while minimising suffering for any plant and animal that crosses my path does feel more human than altogether discarding evolution, our DNA and place in the ecosystem for a wishy-washy ideology that only exists for people leading rich and comfortable lives.
Vegetarianism is a fine and commendable personal choice, as long as it doesn't devolve in proselytism.
It's been many years, though, since I listened to him. And I was usually focused on other things. That may have been just a supposition on another point.
OK, so how can we analyze whether results are made up, partially made up, credible, etc.?
> you'd hate to be the guy who spends years studying spiders just to conclude that they're about as stupid as everyone thinks they are.
I'm sure people would hate to fund that too, or have their lab or university associated with it. How could they avoid it?
By making up results, obviously. That's exactly what I was saying the first time.
Actually, I wish we allocated more money to biology and understanding the living rather than bullshit technology that literally is destroying the world (which is an observable fact).
> These results could well be made up.
Sure, but in terms of priority about "made up" results, I would first look at all those damn startups that literally make up results in order to get VC money.