Photographer and Kat Von D Go on Trial in Case That May Upend Tattoo Industry
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Transcribing a photo or painting into a tattoo seems almost necessarily transformative due to the limitations of the medium.
There are severe limitations on how dark black can get, ink fades which has to be factored in.
Even skill-wise, it's a small subset of tattoo artists that are good enough to replicate a face well enough that it isn't transformative by nature of not looking like the reference at all.
They're not going to extort money from your average scratcher who couldn't manage to violate copyright if they tried.
Even moving beyond that, in practical terms I don't understand the economic reasoning here.
Tattooing is a heavily manual process. There is no route to "industrial copyright infringement" like with books or movies where they can be effortlessly shared. Kat was tattooing for hours on that; I would wager it took over 8 hours just to ink that, ignoring prep work.
Combine a heavily manual process with a limited number of artists capable of producing infringing material and I just can't see what the end goal is. To put everybody back on flash for all their tattoos? To get Midjourney to generate reference material and avoid copyright?
This smells like some greedy lawyer wanting a big flashy case to promote their work ("the lawyer who sued the famous tattoo artist and won.. there goes a happy client with a few extra bucks").
But I don't see anything overly original in this. It'd be like people selling their colored pencil facsimiles of the Mona Lisa. There's talent in the technique, but there's next to no creativity in the artistic expression.
Also, as an aside, the photographer isn't exactly hurting for money either, so I don't think it's simple greed.
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This seems contradicted by the article:
> “I support my family by licensing my images. Please respect the rights of all artists,” the photographer’s Instagram bio reads.
> Bloomberg Law reports that Sedlik’s attorneys showed examples of photographs that he has licensed to artists in the past for them to adapt and sell, according to parameters the photographer and other artists negotiate. In one case where a painter adapted the Miles Davis portrait into a more colorful image, Sedlik expects to make up to $85,000.
I get what you're saying, but I would honestly say the same thing of the original photograph. Its bog-standard "serious and a little melancholic", with the only really notable part being the subject.
The execution is certainly talented (far better than I could muster), but I've gone for this "look" in a bunch of portraits and I've never seen this photo before this article.
I guess what I'm saying is that if the client asked for a serious portrait of a person, this is basically exactly what my mind thinks of. Serious facial expression, dark vignette, grayscale; the hand is the only part that isn't a cliche at this point.
Photography is kind of a weird space for this, imo, because it captures something that actually existed, almost exactly (minus editing). I.e. what would it look like if someone drew/painted/tattooed Miles Davis doing that gesture without using that photo as a reference? How much prompting would it take for them to replicate this photo? I suspect if you asked an artist for "a brooding Miles Davis making a shhh gesture" you'd get something remarkably close to this.
I'm rambling a bit, but I do think creativity in photography as it relates to copyright is an interesting question. The medium demands that the subject and pose are real, and there's certainly creativity in choosing those, but to what degree does the photographer own "that subject in that pose"?
> And for the fact that Kat Von D's own legal team has been quite aggressive in pursuing other artists reproducing, sorry, "transforming" her work.
I'm not really familiar with Kat Von D, but that's disappointing if true. I tried to search, but the results are flooded with this exact case at the moment and gave up after 3 pages of results.
For now:
* https://www.dezeen.com/2016/08/12/fanuc-m-710ic-robot-approp...
* https://www.theverge.com/circuitbreaker/2016/8/4/12376760/in...
> There is no route to "industrial copyright infringement" like with books or movies where they can be effortlessly shared.
Whether something is copyright infringement is not predicated on the scale that it happens at last time I checked (if you make x copies per day you're fine, but if you hit y (>x) you better watch your legal back).
I'm on the side of the tattoo artist on this one, but it does seem like a tattoo printer would not be far into the future with our current tech. I'm honestly more surprised this hasn't caught on more.
Just look at that line in the Verge article. It's bad. Now imagine what its shading would look like.
I don't doubt we'll get there eventually, but that's not particularly close.
It is remarkably round though, it killed that part.
> Whether something is copyright infringement is not predicated on the scale that it happens at last time I checked (if you make x copies per day you're fine, but if you hit y (>x) you better watch your legal back).
I'm not arguing that scale makes it legal to do, just that scale can make it impractical to execute.
I view this as a feature of copyright. It's goal is to promote the arts and sciences, and I don't think violations of copyright too small to be worth filing lawsuits for are harming the arts or sciences.
Even winning this lawsuit seems like a Pyrrhic victory. What do they gain? The judgement can't be that high, what kind of damages can the photographer show? The photographer certainly has standing to sue, I just don't understand the end goal here.
That'd be fucking wild.
I don't think that's a problem for 95% of people. Pretty much every state on the planet tells people what to do with their bodies all the time. If you eat/smoke/whatever certain plants that are found in nature, they can lock you in a cage and steal your livelihood. I think it's heinous and wrong, but it is the current status (even though it ought not to be).
Imagine a tattoo artist creating a tattoo, and then another artist makes a bundle by stealing the first artist's design. That's what copyright is there to protect.
Just like she deserves to make money by creating art, so does the photographer. Can't have it both ways.
It’s funny that if someone was copying her original tattooes the she would obviously be arguing that it was infringement.
I would be touched and honored beyond belief that anyone cares about my work enough to have it permanently inscribed on their skin to carry it with them through life and into death. And to have a talented artist doing the inscription would be beyond belief.
I'm not saying the photographer ought to feel that way, that's just my reaction as Joe Schmoe.
There's no harm to the marketability of my art. Frankly, the person getting tattooed probably cares more about it being Miles Davis than it being an exact replica of that photo. If I made a stink, they'd just change the tattoo design enough to be fair use. Make it Miles Davis doing "hear no evil" instead of "speak no evil" or something.
I just don't see this tattoo taking anything away from the photographer, so I don't see a need for Kat Von D to pay.
Moreover, it's fine for Kat Von D, who can afford a legal team and probably charges enough to have them verify that a tattoo doesn't infringe. Your average $75/hr or $100/hr artist doesn't have those options, and will be open to being bombarded with copyright claims of varying quality, including trolls.
> So is transferring a picture to a r-shirt, yet there we recognize the rights of the artist.
This is notably different because it is often a literal digital copy. I have had T shirts made, you can just send them a digital image. I didn't have to transcribe it or put in any effort.
> It’s funny that if someone was copying her original tattooes the she would obviously be arguing that it was infringement.
I don't think this is particularly relevant. Kat Von D can be both a hypocrite and not guilty of copyright infringement. I also think there's a difference between transcribing art between formats and imitating a piece of art in the same format.
Paraphrasing a book is very different than converting it to a play.
Tom Scott. “YouTube’s Copyright System Isn’t Broken. The World’s Is”. Chapter 2: “No Copyright Infringement Intended”. https://youtu.be/1Jwo5qc78QU
The reason this hasn’t been a problem before is simply due to the nature of a tattoo - people typically only see the finished product after it was produced, long separated from the tattoo artist that inked it. Even with celebrities whose images are all over the media, a rights holder isn’t going to go track down Vin Diesel‘s tattoo artist to demand compensation.
There have been high profile tattoo artists, of course, but one assumes they have been aware of their visibility and thus by and large steered clear of exactly what Kat von D just stepped into.
https://www.techdirt.com/2011/05/25/is-mike-tyson-tattoo-ed-...
In 2011, the tattoo artist who did Mike Tyson's tattoo suing Warner Bros over The Hangover 2 / Ed Helms. It was settled out of court so no precedent was set, sadly.
from https://www.rollingstone.com/music/music-news/kat-von-d-wins...:
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Jurors took less than three hours to unanimously decide her tattoo — as well as her planning sketch and four related social media posts — were not “substantially similar” to the copyrighted 1989 portrait of jazz legend Miles Davis at the center of the trial. The eight jurors also found that three other social media posts made to Von D’s personal and business accounts that also referenced the photo qualified as “fair use.”
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Emphasis on the important parts there, feel free to correct if I got one of them wrong.
Often they would not share the negatives or full resolution images. That way if you decide you want enlargements, more prints, whatever, you have no choice but to buy them from the original photographer.
BTW, in the above scenario it's highly advisable to get whatever pictures you want soon after the event. No telling how good your photographer's backup practices are, or whether the basement where they keep all the negatives will get flooded..
Copyright on commisioned works is pretty clear and I'm pretty sure you would have to explicitly sign over your rights in that case.
I think its more a matter of the photographer not knowing the law or knowing you are unlikely to take then to court regarding it.
The modern trend seems to be to follow the US law on this which is what you say but many signatories of the Berne convention in fact haven't changed their copyright law and commisioned works, specifically photographs, automatically belong to the commissioner in many jurisdictions.
Check your local laws.
I'm not going to go into much more but privacy protection laws likely apply here as well so that even if the photographer still owns the copyright they may not be able to make use of it since it contains your likeness,once again check your local laws.
I'm also reasonably sure it would be pretty hotly contested in an actual legal battle who owns the copyright to such works. There is most certianly prior cases regarding unfair license terms being removed or amended in contracts pertaining to copyright and this seems like one of those cases.
I standby my statement that the photographer is being shady and is assuming you won't take them to court over this.
One can obviously cherry pick a legal jurisdiction where the law is however they want it to appear.
Also Hackernews has audiences from all over the globe.
Regarding the initial point I made. Even if the commenter didn't own the copyright, they absolutely would have an implicit license to have their father paint a picture of the photograph and wouldn't have needed to see the photographers permission.
Also every legal system looks at international laws to determine how a law is to be interpreted. There's a ton that goes into anything so take it all with a grain of salt but I'd be very very confident that should the photographer even have tried to claim damages or gotten any recourse legally in this instance they wouldn't have any legal footing to stand on.
If she paid forward every bit of money flowing too her due to social media attention decided by the share of engagement derived from the photo, the artist would be Extremely happy and the case would be over.
These days attention is money, and this already gave her a ton of attention, not it’s giving her even more.
the statue is a reinterpretation of an existing city seal, but wants to keep its "uniqueness" by not allowing any other reinterpretations of it (nee laurelwood brewing creating a likeness of it (an illustration) for their beer cans).
I have been harassed by building security for taking photos from the sidewalk outside my cities tallest skyscraper.
An architect might own the rights to a buildings design, but they don't own the right to the cities skyline. City photography would become impossible if photographers have to acquire a license for every building in their photos.
If Kat Von D, was tattoing a Nike logo on someone, then maybe there's something there.
I'm suprised this got to trial.
Miles Davis isn't doing this. He's been dead for 32 years.
> Not even Nintendo
This isn't a large corporation doing this either - it's a photographer whose livelihood depends on them licensing their images.
Why should it be considered so fundamentally different from TShirts. If you want to use the source material of someone, then pay for it.
Are we seriously holding in mind that publicity isn't worth anything to artists so you should never say that, while also saying that the tattoo artist (whose compensation is only publicity on social media because she did this tat for free) has profited illegally from a copyrighted image and therefore should be sued for damages? I don't see how both of those could possibly be true.
no, there is a difference between an artist offering to do something for free (because of the publicity they expect) and directly asking an artist to do something for free because i promise they will get publicity out of it.
the later is an insult, because it is not for me to judge if the publicity is worth anything to them. it might not be.
if an artist is maxing out their capacity with paid work, then additional publicity may not help them. then doing something for free would only lower their income.
That is an uncomfortable transition for an artist. Poking them with "do it for the publicity" is aggravating and unpleasant.