Reasons medieval people slept in cupboards | Hacker News Reader

Reasons medieval people slept in cupboards

bbc.com

92 pointselijahparker92 comments

This winter, my cats have figured out how to open the door on a vintage armoire and have taken to sleeping enclosed in it on piles of folded clothes so there's definitely an innate appeal to the closet bed.

One of the most memorable sleeps I've had is sleeping on the middle shelf of a closet in northern Japan during winter in a poorly-insulated house with minimal heat. I left the sliding door open a crack, snuggled into my sleeping bag under extra blankets, and slept about ten hours.

For me, one important bit is missing.

> Alcoves were hygienically problematic, as the straw was sometimes only rarely changed, ventilation was poor and food supplies were often stored under the alcoves in farmhouses. To combat tuberculosis, the Baupolizei [government institution in germany responsible for building codes] took action against alcoves from the end of the 19th century. In the Free State of Oldenburg, the health insurance companies paid 100 Reichsmark per removed alcove in 1926.

Source: https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alkoven_(Bettnische)

I would assume that in other european countries the situation was similar.

I was thinking about this exactly when reading that piece.

Several people sharing a closed space for sleeping seems to be the perfect way to spread diseases as well as parasites.

When I was young and had a bunk bed it was pretty normal to box the lower bunk in with sheets, cushions from the couch — whatever — just to make it into a cave-like thing.

Suddenly I want something like this again.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canopy_bed

When I was a kid, I made pillow forts from the furniture in the living room. Fun times.

When I visited my brother this Christmas, he pointed out that this is an almost universal behaviour in young kids, which suggests that at some point in our evolutionary history we faced predators that specifically targeted small children.

Bed-tents are a thing

We got these for our kids, and they were awesome. Wife and I immediately wanted one, until we got inside and realized it got HOT.

We called that, among other things, "making a fort." Do today's helicopter kids not do that?

Turns out that air power renders fortifications obsolete.

as kids, we used to call it "making a den" :)

This seems like the sort of thing one would read about in https://lowtechmagazine.com/

They mentioned hooded chairs and bed canopies: https://solar.lowtechmagazine.com/2015/02/restoring-the-old-...

It is a decent low tech idea. It would be pretty awesome to have a sleeping nook. Even if you bring some small amount of electric heat or ventilation into the system, like repurposing an old bathroom vent fan, you could perfectly air condition just that one 8x6x5 box and let the rest of the house drop into the low 50s at night and be both comfortable and save money, then use the warmth of the day to warm the house back up for use.

Might be a fun project.

These remind me of one of Christopher Alexander's design patterns. He said children's rooms should be actually a room with a shared play space in the middle and cubbies built into the walls on the side with curtains for privacy.

"A Pattern Language: Towns, Buildings, Construction" is such a calming book. Makes me feel good reading it, though I realize it's overly utopian and we'll only get bits of it done in the real world.

Many of Alexander's "design patterns" were terrible for actual living on a reasonable budget. Like what are you supposed to do with that space when the children get older? I read the book and was not impressed.

That space takes less than having a room for every child. And the answer to your question is, like with every parent whose child has left home, whatever you want including moving somewhere else.

Maybe we read a different book though. I remember Patterns about properly designing parks and communities, and even some on house design but none of them seemed expensive.

I'm away from my copy but I'm pretty sure beds in alcoves is explicitly called out, not just for children.

We often forget just how revolutionary proper insulation and central heating really is. For example in many climates castles were not great places to live in. You simply can't heat that amount of stone and space effectively. And similar thing also went to most buildings.

That is not completely true. The problem is that stone is what survived the centuries while the wood that was used to make the rooms more comely did not hence our modern picture of cold and windy castles.

They were not as luxurious as our modern living but people still did their best to make their living spaces comfortable. They didn't just sit in windy castles freezing their butts off every day. Most of the huge stone rooms we see now were actually separated into smaller wooden chambers that were much easier to heat.

Do you have a cite for this? Not because I don't believe you, I just think this is super interesting and would like to learn more, especially if there are illustrations etc of what it would've been like?

Not a history buff, wouldn't know where to start looking...

If you happen to know German, Geschichtsfenster is a excellent source: https://youtu.be/zPkKCBxFLfc?t=2323

If not, you can look at the pictures at the time stamp. It should be self-explanatory. I sadly don't have good English-speaking sources at hand right now. The problem is that most pop science articles are horribly wrong. Here is one about general castle myths that is OK-ish: https://www.immortalwordsmith.co.uk/myths-about-medieval-cas...

I mostly learned that stuff from taking courses in university. The difference how the academic mainstream sees the medieval period vs pop culture is super crass.

This is great, thanks! Sadly, I'm an uncultured American whose exposure to German is limited to vaguely European foods. But the YouTube auto-translate worked really well and the pictures were awesome. The castle was elegant... almost cozy! I'd live in one :D

Thank you.

There was also plenty of tapestry hanged everywhere. Tapestry making was elevated, in France at least, to the level of a royal manufacture.

BF Skinner slept in this:

https://archive.org/details/bf-skinner-his-own-best-subject-...

Having had a mouse infestation at my cottage that took over a year to resolve, this would have been a great way to keep the critters out of and off the bedding during that time. I suspect for keeping guests and migrant workers in barns and out-buildings per the article, this would have been a great mechanism to keep rodents away while sleeping.

I would use these if there was a modern take in it. There's so much wasted space. All that space above my bed is unused; all the space underneath becomes a magnet for dust and dirt.

I would need to be able to sit up in my bed and get in/out without bumping my head. An integrated light would be nice- for reading, along with some chargingp ports and integrated shelving along with a built-in central air unit with a heater/airco for the hot + warm nights would save a ton of electricity in the extreme seasons.

And if you live in a home with others, a fair bit of privacy is always lovely.

I'm shocked this isn't a thing yet.

You sound like someone dying to live on a sailboat for a few months of the year. There’s something quite cozy and gentle about those berths when done well.

I think noone does that because 2 meter long shelf to put over the bed wouldn't be sturdy enough with modern furniture materials. So any cupboard that's 2m wide and at least 1m deep would need to be custom made. High up, 1 meter deep shelves are not that much more useful than empty space above the bed.

You can put storage above the bed. With some clever engineering, you could probably fit an entire closet at no cost to your sleeping space. It's much easier to sleep nearer the ground than it is to place a loft bed closer to the ceiling to create more space. There's something about climbing up a ladder that's not quite so fun.

I rediscovered this by accident when my power was out and it was very cold. Sleeping in a closet keeps you quite warm.

The downside is that you can run out of air, especially if someone is very flatulent.

I am always surprised how far pop "science" articles are willing to stretch the medieval period. 19th century, really?

The medieval period normally ends at around 1500. There is like one 13th century source in the article, the rest hat NOTHING to do with the medieval period at all.

Not to mention these beds seem to have been mostly popular in Britain and maybe some parts of continental Europe and are absolutely not typical for how medieval people slept in most of Europe.

Also the whole lacking space and multiple people sleeping together in one bed for lack of it thing: yes Victorian era maybe, in the Middle Ages with low population density, surely not typical.

This is absolutely bogus science and BBC should be ashamed writing such crap.

I would love this. I've never understood why humans waste square footage on large bedrooms. Seriously, I could sleep in a closet and be perfectly happy.

Some issue with bringing this design into today:

- air quality (especially if closed off), less air volume means the air gets bad faster

- air humidity, raises faster through sweat in a cupboard setup, for the same reason the inner tent of good tents tends to be made of a fabric which allows air humidity to go out of the inner tent (I think, haven't bought a tent forever)

- fungus mainly due to the higher humidity/reduced ventilation the chance to have a fungus infection in your box (and also/especially the bottom of you mattress)

All of this where issues back then too, just so much smaller then the risk of freezing.

A risk we currently tent to not have in apartments due to better heating, insulation (even on non insulated housed due to better closing windows and better thermal isolating glass). Not being in a short little ice age also helps.

Capsule hotels are somewhat of an modern version of this. They tend to have some form of AC in every capsule to fix the air quality issue and hugely reduce the humidity and in turn fungus issue

If you are stuck in a situation where idk. heating is broken and its dam cold creating a similar setup by e.g. butting a tend on your bed can still be a grate idea.

A good ducted ERV could solve all those problems

In the end we're going to end up with something something that's the mix between a coffin and a computer case. Fan noise would be a big issue.

At the same time, for small volume, it’s much easier to condition and monitor the air to exactly how you want it.

In the current culture bedrooms are more than simply a place to sleep. In multi-member households, a bedroom is typically a person's only personal space.

The newest term is "Owners Retreat"

Imagine a large American 2 story house, where the "Owners Retreat" is on the first floor, a single bedroom, bathroom, multiple cosets sometimes with a small separate kitchenette, laundry, and reading/tv/living space.

> The newest term is "Owners Retreat"

This makes a lot more sense for what I'm planning to build. We're used to calling it "Master bedroom" where I'm from, but I always imagined I'd want some sort of suite or apartment, separate from the rest of the house.

Late reply but here is an example https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=INFPFC1P-iw

There called an in-law suite here, and are generally used as a form of multi-generational housing when old parents move in with their adult child.

I know what you're talking about but that is a different space.

“Personal space” for anyone below the rank of, say, a duke is a very recent trend

Not having dukes around, along with higher global avg prosperity, is also a very recent trend. And seemingly a pretty good one.

Yeah. Screw dukes.

Careful with talk like that, one might be about, might take offense and want to um, them it out..

I'll see myself out.

Cliché, but completely untrue. Personal space in general is a very recent trend. No one with a retinue, servants or a big family has personal space…

I can recommend sleeping in a Tesla’s trunk. Very cosy. Mobile. And air conditioned.

It looks like a wooden version of Tokyo capsule hotels.

I've slept in kind of a modern version in Singapore like this https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/Customized-Good-quali... They are quite a good solution for backpacker type accom. I don't know if they could be used for homeless folk?

Check out Hong Kong cage homes. Tiny shared spaces would require a lot of discipline to successfully pull off.

Make it soundproof and take my money.

Are you trying to stop sound getting in or getting out? In the first case some decent earplugs should be sufficient.

Nathan for You S3.E6 also explored this idea as a hotel amenity for sexually active parents.

The show was wholesome enough that we started watching it with the kids...

...and then that episode came on.

Most awkward family night ever.

No, they are not. Imagine some construction work with heavy drilling outside your bedroom window.

Imagine if, with advances in materials science, that it was. Could we make a 3 meter cube that was acoustically isolated from the rest of the world? Then they could do all the heavy drilling they want.

In this case, it's not just sound vibrations but vibrations that you can feel in your house and bed! Truly difficult. Double or staggered stud walls really help.

> could reportedly sleep up to five people

How?? Are they sleeping on top of each other?

Seems like it was made so you can sleep during the daytime as well, allowing shift work.

But why are they up off the floor? I read the article... did I miss that part?

Maybe thermal isolation from the cold floor.

Same reason most beds are, pests.

This is what we're told but "because pests" is a bit ambiguous.

Ever had rats? Fuckers will climb literally anything and get into literally everything. "Roof rats" are a thing.

Elevation does not deter any pest I'm aware of (bears maybe). Your bed will get bedbugs same as a futon, but in the case of rodents their droppings always fall downward. Keeping stuff off the ground keeps it away from filth.

Wasn't the average human slightly shorter than today?

yes, through it's mostly unrelated to the "cupboard bed" design. Today you "just" would make them a bit bigger, as they in the end replace your bed they don't consume much more space then your bad.

Mom found the medieval orgone accumulator

I can't tell from the pictures, but these almost look too small to sleep in. Would people curl up inside them? I'd like to see a human for scale

If they're about warmth, then maybe keeping the air volume to a minimum is part of the function, so maybe curling up was a part of it. The other part was probably that people were statistically shorter in the middle ages.

The one pencil sketch gives you some idea. I think they just have a smallish opening — it looks like there is room to the left and to the right (inside) of the shuttered area.

People were smaller on average. But also, I've read it wasn't uncommon to sleep with legs/knees pulled up somewhat (maybe using pillows?). And that the changed bloodflow due to non-horizontal sleeping position (legs above head) contributed to higher prevalence of brain strokes.

Don't know if the latter is true. But doesn't seem too implausible - life back then was generally less healthy & more dangerous.

People were also smaller.

I've heard or read people say that hundreds of years ago people were taller than now. even much taller. no idea if that is true or not.

This is false. If you're ever in Europe come visit an old castle, the kings of old slept on what would today be seen as child sized beds.

We clearly haven't been to the same castles. Also, you could always curl up in a bed or sleep in a sitting position (which or may not have been common in Western Europe a few years ago). If you go visit museums that have full suits of armour that were actually worn by knights and kings, you'll be surprised. You clearly had plenty of tall people. Average size was certainly much lower than today, but spread was higher and you had plenty of tall, well-fed nobles. Charlemagne was apparently 1.84 m, Francis I of France was almost 2 m tall, Sancho VII of Navarre was even taller than that.

incomplete argument. those could have been the beds of their children. not saying you are wrong, but you would need to substantiate it better, imo, to convince.

It's most likely false, considering the rate of malnourishment before the Industrial and Agricultural Revolutions.

There’s some nuance/caveats, but here’s a study showing humans lost height during the switch from hunting/gathering to agriculture:

https://modernfarmer.com/2022/04/farming-made-our-ancestors-...

And, though I'm sure there are going to be objections, in both time periods people would be considered nutritionally deficient when compared to today.

Yes, however I don't think many hunter/gatherers had cupboards to sleep in...

It's bad because you are isolated. You need to get grounded in order to sleep properly:

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/15650465/

Big fluffy beds way off the floor are bad. It's interesting to note that the above finds it most effective for women. The below is most effective for men.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10105021/

It shouldn't actually matter your sex.

To add, buddhist monks must sleep on the ground and lay followers are expected to sleep on the ground on occasion.

> It's bad because you are isolated. You need to get grounded in order to sleep properly:

> https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/15650465/

This was published by the Journal of Alternative and Complementary Medicine, which has also published articles on how homeopathy is effective. I don't know that I would consider it a high quality source.

I noticed the same thing, but this makes me more concerned: the link has nih.gov in it. Usually when I read articles from that URL, I tend to put a bit more trust in them than say healthline.org or some blogspam or something like that. Does this mean I have to start taking nih.gov articles with a grain of salt too?

Yes. Blindly trusting any source is just another fpavor of ignorance.

do i start with the same level of distrust when reading something on nih.gov and healthline.com?

The UK NIH unfortunately has a reality ignoring relationship with "homeopathy" and other "alternative" medicines, up to and including the current king being a vocal Proponent of using more alternative medicine to reduce costs and improve health.

It's not great.

Probably some powerful/connected 'teach the controversy' snake-oil peddlers forced the NIH to publish this. At least they were able to segregate the woo off into it's own section.

I sourced the NIH. I'm not familiar with the infinite number of journals and their associated possible biases.

I did get downvoted badly. I was not aware the NIH was so untrustworthy. People usually accept them as a source.

I will now question the NIH. Thanks for telling me about the NIH.

is it just me or does that second link resemble pseudoscience?

"Earthing" is definitely in the pseudoscience category. There's no supposed mechanism, and "earth" is just a relative point anyway.

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