Against Normalcy: Why Being Normal Can Be Dangerous | Hacker News Reader

Against Normalcy: Why Being Normal Can Be Dangerous

durmonski.com

47 pointsdurmonski69 comments

I feel like I have approached life from the opposite direction of the author. I walked to the beat of my own drum and didn't care too much for opinions about how I was weird. I was making things better, and if other people weren't along for the ride then it just showed how dumb and lazy they were.

Later, I realized that my relentless pursuit of self-improvement hasn't brought me happiness. I need to work hard to cultivate good relationships if I want to be happy.

I suggest this post said more about the author than about life in general.

In my opinion, you attract what you put out. So I've cultivated extremely close and meaningful relationships with the people around me precisely by always marching to the beat of my own drum. By sticking to what I believe is true and valuable (while allowing my mind to be changed), always incontrovertibly being myself (wearing who I am on my sleeve — it does what it says on the tin ;)), doing what I found rewarding and only that whenever there's a choice, and focusing relentlessly on self improvement, I attracted the sort of people who value the things I value like moths to a lamp, because I stood out and exemplified. And the kind of person I attracted by doing this is the only kind of person I'd be interested in having any meaningful relationship with. If I tried to shave off my rough edges and conform to normalcy in order to win friends and influence people, I'd attract mediocre people I don't find value in, and so although I might have more friends, it would be a hollow victory.

I think people tend to place the virtues I'm talking about — essentially uncompromising (or little compromising) independence and self expression — in opposition to emotional maturity, wisdom, and human connection, but things don't have to be that way. It depends on who you surround yourself with and how you go about expressing and improving yourself. So I didn't need to conform to have friends at all — it just happens that finding friends and being a steady rock of support and insight for them is something I find valuable and rewarding to do, and I include wisdom and acceptance and emotional maturity as aspects to self improve just as I do technical knowledge.

> In my opinion, you attract what you put out

Yes, this appear to be an extremely strong effect. I usually phrase it as "you get what you give".

I started out trying to please other people and became much happier when I stopped. Perhaps change is what makes us happiest?

I think it's more like: when we're young, our unique personalities sieze onto particular strategies that work for us. Later, two things happen: we thoroughly master our default strategy and get bored with using it for everything (like you said, change is enjoyable); and, simultaneously with mastering and getting bored with our default strategy, we also begin to learn that there are nuances to life, so we can't just stick to one approach for everything.

In 2020, there was no country in the world where at least majority (50%>=) of the adult population smoked daily,[0] and I'd say that the modal cigarette consumption is almost certainly zero. Granted that the author leaves "normal person" and "typically," "statistically speaking," undefined, what does he think he could have meant?

Why would someone, on the 2024th year of Our Lord, write a silly claim such as "statistically speaking, a normal person typically... Smokes"? Not only that, but also put in the first line of their enumeration?

[0]: https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/share-of-adults-who-smoke

In my neighborhood, the majority of adult men around my age smoke. So even if it isn’t normal at the national level, it is considered normal in my community. Possibly the author is in a similar situation.

It’s really amazing how much “normal” can differ across different groups of people. I have a group of cycling buddies for whom it’s normal to spend $5000+ on a bike, ride hundreds of kilometers a week, avoid drinking during the cycling season, and of course avoid smoking. And another group of friends who are the complete opposite - our get-togethers revolve around binge drinking, eating, smoking, and tossing a frisbee would be considered an unusual amount of physical exertion.

No judgement here in either case. They are all good people and we always have a good time when we get together. And I’m glad that I have some friends that can challenge and encourage me to become stronger and healthier. And other friends with whom I can laugh and joke and blow off steam.

Sort of the same story with "Is physically unhealthy.", which links to the prevalence of US adult obesity, which is ~36%. I.e., … a minority.

That one is highly regional though. I travel to the southern US occasionally, and people are very visibly more obese there. It's … something.

Ever been to Wisconsin?

I think at one time it was neck and neck with Texas for leading the nation in obesity. I live here, and it hits me when I travel. Even just to neighboring states. Minnesota and Illinois are visibly more fit.

Obesity is a problem in many areas in the US.

MN and WI have very similar levels of obesity, now. Mostly cus MN caught up to WI lol.

I didn't say it was limited to the south. A quick Google says WI is +0.4 percentage points above the national average for obesity. My home state is +3.2 percentage points vs. the national average.

But moreso, my home state is +11.8 percentage points vs. my current state, hence how much it stands out when I go home.

It's really not that much of a stretch to imagine a further 14% are physically unhealthy while not meeting the criteria for obesity (realistically much more). Think of all the slim to slightly overweight people who drink excessively, use other harmful substances, eat like crap, get poor sleep, have lots of poorly managed stress, or avoid exercise. Any one of these things can lead to being physically unhealthy (even when you appear fine outwardly).

What this article lacks is the self awareness that the entire process being described is the literal definition of normalcy. Hitting inflection points, changing your habits, then realizing that your new identity conflicts with your old social circle and so on is the most mundane stuff in human existence. It's the narrative of every Bildungsroman. There's a version of this blog from every person hitting 30/40 or whatever.

Also culturally, this kind of stuff:

"Don’t feel ashamed of acting differently. Find out what works for you, regardless of what others think."

is already the default mantra of our time that everyone is supposed to live up to, that's the slogan of every Pepsi commercial. Nowadays it'd be significantly weirder to say: "Listen to the advice of your elders and live up to social rule expected of you".

Yeah, I need to digest this more.

However I find myself in similar shoes, if only for the fact that almost person I can count as a friend (e.g. beyond the level of an acquaintance) is "normal" and "successful" (for some reasonable definition) and also taking SSRI or similar type medications in order to function. Those that aren't are very obviously self-medicating in some way. Is this the price of normal?

It is downright chilling. It may be that depression is an affliction of wealth, but I've had it long enough to see it as a curse you never rid yourself of.

PS: please don't go full Internet pedant and tell me about all my biases and sampling errors. That goes without saying: it's self-reported data!

i'm pretty sure the truth is just what we all already know, modern (western?) life is not how we're built to live. almost everybody is either miserable, medicated (self or otherwise), or both, because we're completely incompatible with the status quo.

You said it already, it's self reported data.

There are at least two possible alternative explanations for your experience:

- Similar people group together. You said you have depression, so you tend to affiliate with similar people.

- Biased perception. You tend to notice the things your mind is revolving around. Like people with a pregnancy scare seeing children everywhere.

In addition surveys showed that most people have a positive hedonic tone and report being happy. I won't argue against the rising prevalence of mental illnesses in developed countries. However it seems that those numbers are just more diagnosed cases that did go unnoticed. In general. There are contributing societal factors like inequality, loneliness, etc. that make the US have higher rates than europe for example.

"I studied the blade" is a more succinct expression of the same sentiment.

>Travels because it’s considered acceptable – and cool – to travel.

Wow, that's how I feel, I'm not a fan of traveling

It doesn't make me happy, tires me as hell due to planning & stuff, I don't feel like I'm getting anything out of it (except improving bound with my friends)

But somehow I don't think I know even one person who doesn't like traveling.

Generally I'm finding this post really coherent with my experience, but I've been calling it "why is it so hard to be relatively rational?"

like you know - not smoking, drinking a lot, doing sports, etc.

I'd add one thing:

People rarely aggressively manage their careers, especially outside tech.

You might be doing the wrong things while traveling. Traveling is essentially summed up as "I'm going to go experience something new in person/IRL". If you don't have any desire to do that, then it might not be for you. Otherwise traveling can come in many flavors:

- I want to experience a different culture

- I want to see something in the physical world locally

- I want to go somewhere and relax (and my current life/location doesn't let me do that)

- I want to go somewhere and meet someone (you know, don't know, who knows!)

Perhaps traveling is more the last category for you, plan trips to visit your friends and family who you don't see as often. Doesn't have to always be an exotic destination with an action-packed agenda.

>Perhaps traveling is more the last category for you, plan trips to visit your friends and family who you don't see as often.

I'd rather say that I'm going with friends somewhere cuz I enjoy spending time with them,

but I have completely very minimal interest in the stuff that we're visiting, like I have 0 emotions towards places.

You're not interested in seeing great natural wonders? The Amazon rainforest, the cliffs of Dover, the Australian great barrier reef, the volcanoes of Hawaii etc?

Well, that's not the average trip :P

Yet still, I instantly feel tired by thinking about the effort / planning of cross-country trip

I'd love to see those things, but not at the emotional/mental cost of actually having to travel to those places. If travelling didn't suck so much and in so many ways, maybe... but the reality is that airlines, lodging, and crowds collectively detract from the experience. Personally, it's very much a net loss.

I'm reminded of Dr. Johnson's assessment of the Cliffs of Dover: "Worth seeing, yes. But not worth going to see."

Hi, as another odd duck here, I'd like to chime in: no, not really, I don't understand why people value these things. If I was interested in seeing them, I'd move near them so I could see them often. I'm really not interested in seeing things for a couple of hours. If I value it, I want it frequently.

I actually travel a lot (compared to the typical person, maybe not compared the typical internet commenter that wants to one up me), and I kind of agree with you.

Going and just seeing things is a fairly shallow experience imo and leads to dull trips. Theres a lot more nuance to this then Im prepared to write about. I do think sightseeing is one of the shallowest things you can do and travel for, I think you are right for questioning it. Alot of people want to travel, but don't know how to do it and sight seeing is an easy default. I wouldn't be surprised that instagram and related are making this worse, where people just travel to see things because they don't know what else to do.

I went and read a bunch of Paul Theroux's books and it changed my idea of what travel should be. Travel and the destination you pick should have a purpose that's important to you.

Personally I find the beautiful nature to be a nice bonus to where ever im going. I enjoy a good hike, new scenery is cool to be in to some extent. If you plan a trip to lisbon, everyone guide will tell you to go to sintra, look at the castles. I found that to be one of the most underwhelming places Ive been, from the lines, to paying for everything, and the only thing to do was look at things I had no connection to, while being bussed around or walking. I got a few cool photos, but im not a photographer and no one cares about my photos.

No. It’s boring. The appreciation of the external was never something that was cultivated in me.

It’s all just stuff. It’s all static. People are dynamic. They’re stimulating. They’re people.

Perhaps it’s due to upbringing. Depending on adolescent socioeconomic status, people may be more inclined to get their emotional “fill” from certain things.

They're labeled great wonders by other people, but that doesn't make them universally wonderful. To them and others, they are just trees, rocks, and reefs.

It sounds like you definitely could reduce the emotional/mental load of traveling by going directly to your friends and staying with them (if/when possible). This simplifies things like lodging, activities, etc. since they can/might be more able to take care of those things for you.

Travel is so broadly encompassing but I absolutely empathize with the challenges you face. Hopefully you find your own way to look at the bright side of traveling (the experience at the end of it)!

What does "aggressively manage their careers" mean?

There are people who join some job, are more or less OK with the salary and conditions and then stop thinking about improving their situation

And I'm not saying about quitting 1 or 2 years later, but something like "In 5 years I'd want to 'work as X'/'earn Y'/'do Z'" and put years of effort into that goal.

Those are basics, I think.

Aggressively would be putting a lot of effort into going up, networking, abusing connections and more that I'm not even aware of.

I'm not saying that this is healthly, but if you arent happy with your current $$ or job, then...?

I absolutely despise travel. It's been a source of friction at previous jobs. I have friends who are into travel and I swear, they simply won't let up about trying to get me to travel. I'm starting to wonder if they are in a cult or perhaps all of the airplanes take a quick stop at Stepford and return travel-loving robots. Were I granted the ability to painlessly and easily teleport, I still don't think I would go many places.

Worse yet, I suspect people would travel less were they forbidden to speak of it.

It's great to make conscious choices of what you want from your life, and accounting for the trade-offs. But these choices are likely different for everybody.

This post makes the fundamental mistake of assuming that "different" is automatically "better". Some people might enjoy shows over books because e.g. they lack mental imagery and enjoy visualizations. Some people might enjoy wine because it works for their palate. Yes, it has a health impact, but guess what, so has long distance running.

Choose the path that works for you, and enjoy it. But if we all could stop telling each other that somehow, we personally lucked onto finding the perfect path, that'd be helpful. It'd be different from the normal case on the Internet, too.

I really enjoyed the read, thank you! Though... I get the feeling we're all obsessing over how to live instead of just... Living. About halfway through I got anxiety thinking about how to improve my life.

I don't know. I did enjoy the read even if I didn't agree with it very much.

I'm unsure if it's meant to be life advice or philosophy but it misses the mark on both for me.

If life advice: Sure maybe for you? Others might find they're a bit happier with a drink and their comfort TV shows in the evening.

If philosophy: Aren't mindless self indulgence and relentless self improvement both just raging against an inevitable death? In a Buddhist sort of "All life is suffering" sort of way? What about being present?

When I decided that I didn’t want to be normal. I didn’t do it intentionally. I didn’t wake up one day declaring, “I’m an idiot surrounded by other idiots!”

No, I started with identifying behaviors that were corrupting my life and then made a conscious decision to replace them with alternative activities. Activities that were meant to contribute to my life progression, instead of persisting in current endeavors that have confined me in a wretched abyss of mediocrity.

Oh, boy! An idiot among idiots? “corrupting” your life? Life progression? “Wretched abyss of mediocrity”?

I’m sorry to break it to you, but while you might have moved from “statistical normality”, you have become a linkedin meme, which is, in fact, the pinnacle of normal.

Long life to the struggles of the soul and the search of the heart. Beware of those who claim to have found a solution for the human condition based on such vain things as fitness, money or turning off the tv. Sure, take care of your body and your mind, find a more holistic way of being, but don’t be fooled into thinking that happiness or fulfillment is behind empty accomplishments that make you feel better than your friends, family and many other worthy human beings.

Yes, you’re right, you could get stuck in a trap but don’t you think you’re more likely to find fulfillment by turning off the TV? Taking care of the mind and body (not obsessively) is a requirement I think. All roads have some traps but some are harder to get out off if you’re in a weak state mentally and physically.

You can indulge from time to time.

Based on your list I would be considered "abnormal".

But I also like to socialize from time to time - and it can mean I've polished off half a bottle of wine hanging out with people I dearly love, who I don't see that often and where I lose track of time and miss the next day's workout is worth the price.

If I am disciplined 90% of the time - I can goof up for the 10%.

Not arguing with most of it. And for those struggling with executing on it, i highly recommend to get on Ozempic/Wegovy which helps with nearly all the list just due to the way it wraps your mind - anyway, if you have a problem procrastinating, drinking, overeating and not saving money you are also likely overweight and qualify for it.

But question is: wtf is wrong about travelling? I understand the purpose of travelling simply as: seeing new stuff frequently and frequently doing everyday things in a way you never did before just because new surroundings force you to. You can't follow you normal routine, you have to think on every step. That keeps your mind sharper. The older you are, the more benefit it makes. What's wrong about it? Smartest (and richest) people i know just travel most of the time literally. A few are nomadic in the most direct sense: they move from one 5-star hotel suite to the next for years and years.

Travel is a surrogate "hobby" for people who don't really have a hobby, but want to do something that makes them look interesting.

This isn't universally true. Some people truly enjoy experiencing other cultures and parts of the world for its own sake. Not everyone who travels for pleasure and curiosity are doing it "for the gram". That being said, there are also many people who are.

i have several hobbies and there are countless places all over the world that i'd love to see if i could afford to

You must live in a good climate. I mainly travel to avoid shitty climate.

Spoken like someone with an overconfidence in their own judgments and an underappreciation of alternative worldviews.

If you're taking a trip for a week at a time somewhere, you are experiencing their tourism industry, not their culture. Experiencing culture requires you to remain in a place for a period of time, and you don't get that by visiting shops and bars. You get that by building relationships with people where they are.

Depends entirely how you approach it. You can build relationships that last a day and still learn a lot.

While that could be considered true, isn't it the same as saying "playing the satar" is a shitty surrogate hobby for people who are too afraid to travel and explore other cultures?

A good hobby will positively affect one's live, be a source of personal pride and sense of accomplishment. You can be the guy who obsesses about metallurgy and makes the sharpest knifes in your basement. Consequently that gets you to brag about it to your referent group and make you feel a sense of joy, apart from the joy you feel when you do the crafting itself.

Similar with traveling - immersing yourself in foreign cultures and trying to understand them is very much akin to endeavouring to learn a new programming language, or starting an open source project to test out some cool tech. With luck you'll get something tangible (photos and videos of trip / git repo with cool code), will have the memory of the joy you felt with the exploration and will have something to talk about with your referent group.

Sure there are people who abuse traveling to make it for the status rather than for the joy, but isn't that true with everything?

In the end, if it brought you joy, and you didn't harm anyone, it would could be worthwhile to you. And an old folk saying I've heard ones said "whatever you eat and drink nobody can take away from you". Its the experience that matter.

We bow to your supreme art of traveling. Please share so us plebs know how to travel

What a dumbass comment

I had a tough time traveling with normal people. They needed to visit only popular cafes and restaurants, stay in long queues to get to overcrowded places. They don't care the history of the city, they have only places to check-in.

I had a conversation with my colleague and he said he wanted to visit India so badly. But he had some restrictions for the trip: the hotel territory should be with own beach with no access for locals, and the personal should be all non-Indians. That's difficult for me to understand what kind of India experience you could get with this approach.

sounds like a racist douchebag to me

I don't know what happened in his head that moment, because he had Indian colleague who he actually respected.

selective racism

Must have been "one of the good ones".

I had a tough time travelling "with" almost any people. Travel alone and don't let people fuck your brain. If you get lonely, get on Tinder, in a new place it's always easy in the beginning.

I stopped watching shows, so I can focus more on books.

It really depends on what you're reading. If you trade binging Netflix for binging scifi novels, it's basically the same thing.

Deciding not to do “normal” things is fine. You don’t want to drink or smoke or watch TV? Good for you.

But it doesn’t have to be all or nothing. You can enjoy some really great TV and ignore the reality dreck. You can have a beer with friends or enjoy a wine with a meal without being an alcoholic.

And you can go for a run without feeling the need to look down on people who don’t want to do ultras.

The author's subjective take is objectively pure subjection of his own experience.

And though I say this not as judgement, rather as speculation - the experiences read from a person who hasn't known life prior to the inception of the internet, and all that came forth from it, after it.

"Normal" is just another word for "average", and who wants to be average?

"a life where you push yourself to get better is not necessarily a life where everything feels awesome."

That's the big challenge these days - many people think life is supposed to be "always awesome" - and it's not.

If you think drinking, smoking and staying out late is fun - cool. Wait till these guys hit 40/50 and you'll see the result - I did and quite happy about my choices.

Short term thinking is ultimately what kills us.

> Watches all kinds of sports, but never participates in sports himself.

This is incredibly ableist. I don't necessarily disagree with the rest but this stood out a lot.

What is ableist in that comment?

That watching and not participating in sports is some kind of failing? Plenty of people have disabilities that do not allow them to participate in sports.

Thanks for sharing this, even if I think there’s absolutely no need to do the things other people do, ever.

All you need to do is to teach yourself how to love different things.

It helps to speak a language also spoken by the people you're talking with. It helps to wear a skirt or pants while shopping in the grocery store.

There's a continuum.

Not sure I understand what you mean. Can you please try to make it clearer to me? Thanks.

> there’s absolutely no need to do the things other people do, ever.

For example you and I cannot have this exchange of comments without using a language we both speak. That's an example of doing things other people do, whether you want to or not, in order to achieve your own goals.

Thanks for putting these words together - I can relate to it!

I feel this article lacks a bit of the purpose behind "being different". I agree that doing what you described is not easy and will make you socialise less than before. However, isn't the point of all these changes to make you feel good?

If you are feeling depressed or have a feeling that everything is "work" - I would question, "What 'being different' will do for you?". If you are 'living for the future', what is your deadline to live this way before you start enjoying life?

One extra tool that has been super helpful for me (although a bit hard to start) is self-compassion. It helped me be more aligned with what I want. Sometimes, I want to brainlessly rest by watching Netflix, which is fine as long as I'm not lying to myself.

Anyway, thanks for sharing again :)

I feel like I have a very clear idea why the author's friends quit hanging out with him.

A guy describing his most basic bitch lifestyle as unique and different from everybody else.

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