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Comment by aaronbrethorst | Hacker News Reader

I've been writing Ruby for about 16 years, and I find that eminently readable.

You're apply state_machine to the attribute state, and giving it an initial value of :parked. Then there's a block that ostensibly encapsulates state transitions following (hence the do).

Ruby can be written extremely tersely, and that can be difficult for non-Rubyists to read. This might help:

    state_machine(:state, {:initial => :parked}) do
        # transitions here
    end

What I don't understand is why I'd want use this over aasm (https://github.com/aasm/aasm)

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I find it way easier to read this modified version — and I use ruby at work. It’s not even close.

I think the choice to "name" all arguments (`from:`, `to:`, which if I recall from my bygone Ruby days is implicitly parsed as a single hash argument) goes a long way to make things more consistent compared to having the first argument passed separately, making the colons a lot harder to parse visually due to the inconsistency.

Both of these gems just feel unreasonable verbose to me. E.g. why "transitions from: :somestate, to: :otherstate" vs just "transition :somestate => : otherstate"?

A lot of the syntax of these feels over-engineered, or like someone has just read a Smalltalk introduction and is overdoing keyword arguments to emulate it.

If I'm going to use a DSL to define a state machine, it better be a lot terser and/or clearer than a method with a case block.

E.g.

    det state = @state || :initial_statr

    def state=(event)
      case [state, event]
      in [:somestate, :someevent]
        someaction
        @state = :newstate
      in ...
      ...
      end
    end

or case event ..., or case state ..., depending on the "shape" of your state machine.

("in" vs "when" here largely depends on whether you want to use any of the newer, fancier pattern matching allowed with "in"; I'm not sure it matters here)

I could see wrapping up those two methods in a single small helper, and maybe a little bit extra sugar to make it easier to decompose large state machines, but it better be a complex set if transitions before I'd not throw a fit over the use of these gems in a code review.

(Yes, I can see they offer a lot more information about the states and transitions, but I'd argue they offer far too broad APIs for it by default, and you'll end up going hunting for method definitions that don't exist all over the place because of all the methods it injects)

In particular the whole before/around/after transition screams at me to apply caution to prevent people having to hunt around to figure out the total set of possible effects of a transition.

On why not to use "transition :somestate => :otherstate", it would be because then other optional arguments might conflict with the state names. For example, if the `transition` method takes an optional argument of `given:` then a state machine could not have state called `given`. In fact, no optional arguments could be added in a backwards compatible way.

The states could be passed positionally but, imo, the increased verbosity helps readability rather than hinders it.

Your example code seems not really thought through. If I were to implement that, then I would write code that looked like this: `my_thing.state = :some_action; assert my_thing.state == :some_new_state`. Now we're spending company money discussing whether the state machine code you decided to write by yourself has a reasonable interface.

I've used aasm for years and it's just fine. If someone suggested we just implement a non-trivial state machine with our own homegrown solution, I would push back. Trust the community's experience and just pull in the well-established library. There seems to me a certain hubris in deciding that the rest of the world has settled on an overly complex solution when, if they had just thought for a moment, it should just be a 'switch` statement.

Then you explicitly pass the transitions as a hash, or provide other methods for those specific options, but part of my point was that adding so many options in the first place is part of the problem of that API. It's trying to do way too much at the same time, and the result is you're ending up with really excessive code.

My example code was a quick and dirty example; instead of state= you could use "event" or whatever name you prefer. You're having the discussion about API whether you have it explicitly or have it by having the discussion about pulling in those gems.

And the point was the verbosity of it, not the details. If you need "a solution" for a state machine, odds are your state machine is too big and convoluted and ought to be decomposed, because to me at least their examples obfuscates the state machine they're defining in a way that is a huge red flag.

I definitely would not trust "the community's" experience on this - it's by no means "the rest of the world" that has settled on this, but a tiny subset. Thankfully I've never had to deal with code using either of these gems "in the wild" in 19 years of Ruby development.

Having looked at the source of the state_machine gem, I'm now even less inclined to want it anywhere near my code. It's grossly over-engineered. A quick look at aasm makes it look slightly saner, but it's still grossly invasive and huge amounts of code.

Too late to edit, but see also: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39087098 where I give a more fleshed example of something more similar that I'd be happier with, and which you'll notice is a lot closer to aasm than the linked gem. Compared to the state_machines gem, aasm I have mostly nitpicks over the syntax of and most of my issue is that the implementation is way more complex than it needs to be.

By all means, use what you're familiar with - aasm is by far the better choice if you've first made the investment.

I worked on a state machine framework in another language, and have definitely have found less terse to be pretty good. Typing a few extra characters isn't that bad, especially if it makes some awful bit of evented code easier for someone to understand.

Of the things available open source, I think P-lang is pretty cool: https://github.com/p-org/P/blob/master/Tutorial/1_ClientServ...

There are thresholds in both directions, and I find the state_machines examples go way too far in the direction of verbosity to the point where it makes it harder rather than easier to see what is going on.

I'd argue the same for your P-lang example.

The state transitions in your example are trivial to the point where a "framework" is entirely unnecessary, but even then they are hidden inside the implementation details in a way that forced me to read the implementation to realise that they're trivial.

If I have a state machine that is complex enough that I want a "framework" to simplify things, my first requirement will be that it makes clear the state transitions and criteria separate from the implementation of them. Both the state_machines gem and the other Ruby gem mentioned in this thread have examples that in my opinion does a far better job at separating that.

Positionally-significant colons is more nightmarish than significant whitespace. Speaking as a critic of significant whitespace.

Put them at the front and make them mean something, or put them at the back and make them mean something, Making both places mean something entirely different, or even allowing both as an allowable syntax, is horrible for readability.

The colon sigil denotes a Symbol class literal, and a trailing colon here denotes a Symbol used as a Hash object key.

Ruby uses symbols (strings prefixed with a semicolon) very liberally. It’s just a value literal. Ive never met anyone who writes Ruby that has an issue with the readability of it.

Selection bias

I’m a Perl guy, and I find Ruby bizarrely verbose. I don’t understand how people can enjoy their symbols with all those word things.

Right? If it doesn't use the shift key and the entire numeric row of the keyboard, count me out.

Would disagree. I write in other languages and I find things tough to read. There are things about ruby I find tough to read (like `unless`) and know many other people who agree.

Symbols work just fine in practice.

https://wikipedia.org/wiki/Stockholm_syndrome

Is it stockholm syndrome if I leave ruby and years later still wish I had symbols in other languages?

They mean "symbol" either way, except when trailing ":" also means they're a key.

I'd be inclined to agree it's a wart, but not that it affects readability to any noticeable amount.

In this case, though, the DSL looks just awful to me.

To expand on this:

Contrary to constants which are fixed+ references to values, symbols are pure values: they're like integers but with a textual name. Explicitly they are not strings.

They used to be very useful because a symbol takes little memory and comparing two symbols means comparing two integers; it's a bit like `#define FOO 42` in C, except `42` is automatically picked up and you don't care what the value actually is.

They are less useful today because there have been a lot of improvements e.g with frozen string literals (which are now stored only once and thus can be compared much more efficiently). Still that has a lot to do as to why they're used for kwargs and hash keys and method names and a ton of other stuff, where without symbols you'd have a ton of the same strings showing up over and over, so instantiated and compared.

The hash syntax used to be only arrow but it was so common to do `:foo => "bar"` that at some point Ruby (1.9) introduced `foo: "bar"`, which makes writing hashes look like JSON/YAML and kwargs more like other languages like Python. This does make it a bit surprising because suddenly there's a symbol that is not prefixed with `:` but it also makes things a ton more readable in many cases.

I do use the "new hash syntax" liberally, but also still use arrow hashes a lot because it all depends on the way things are written around and sometimes one is more readable than the other.

For example in general I don't like writing rake task target dependencies or Rails routes with the new syntax, the arrow one makes more sense to me. Or when one can have mixed keys that can be symbols or some other types, I find it more readable to have a consistent hash syntax, so I go to the old arrow one.

+ well, although frowned upon, constants can be reassigned, they're essentially just some variables albeit with a different scope and resolution system.

It seems like you have the concept down pat. I don't see what's wrong with it?

Like lots of languages use positionally-dependent symbols. In both Perl and VB various characters in the variable name implied things about its type. With C/C++ the position of * tells you lots of important things. How is this anything less than yet another random language quirk?

First of all these are not new gems. In the past I used both and I strongly prefer this one to aasm. I like the DSL of it. It seems more convenient to me.

Wait, is :state a keyword or an instance attribute? Using the same syntax for both seems really confusing.

It's a symbol. Basically a glorified string literal.

It's more like an integer with a textual name.

Ruby doesn't have "instance attributes". Instance variables are prefixed with "@". Anything prefixed by ":" is a symbol.

In some contexts we use symbols to refer to methods by name.

Anything you might thing is an "attribute" is likely a method. E.g. on some_object.name, name is always a method. You might be confused because e.g. "attr_reader" takes symbol arguments, because it's just another method. E.g. "attr_reader :foo" defines a method named "foo" to return "@foo". ":foo" there is a Symbol representing the name "foo".

So it's just a symbol, but in this context it will be used to look up the "state" method? Not unlike how symbols are sometimes used as "designators" of various things in Lisp?

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