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> Note that Rust doesn't fix this problem. Rust just encodes the assumption of pre-known lifetimes much more strongly in the language. If you're not in such a domain then you have to fall back to refcounting, which is (a) slow and (b) easy to get wrong such that you leak anyway. Early versions of Rust used refcounting for everything and iirc they found anywhere between 10-15% of the resulting binaries was refcounting instructions!

Well, modern idiomatic Rust only uses Arc/Rc on the few objects where it's needed, so the overhead of reference count adjustment is so tiny as to never show up. You typically only see reference count traffic be expensive when either (a) everything is reference counted, as in ancient Rust; or (b) on super-inefficient implementations of reference counting, as in COM where AddRef() and Release() are virtual calls.

Right, but that's what I mean by encoding the assumption of known lifetimes in the language. The design is intended for cases where most lifetimes are known, and only a few need ref counting, and you can reason about lifetimes and relationships well enough in advance to avoid cycles. At least, that's my understanding (my Rust-fu is shamefully poor).

> Early versions of Rust used refcounting for everything and iirc they found anywhere between 10-15% of the resulting binaries was refcounting instructions!

Do you happen to have a citation for this? I don’t remember ever hearing about it, but it’s possible this was before my time, as I started in the smart pointers era.

I read it in an old HN comment by pcwalton. Algolia to the rescue! Actually it's even worse, he said it was 19% of the binary size:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5691684

The Rust compiler does this. Even so, 19% of the binary size in rustc is adjusting reference counts.

I am not exaggerating this. One-fifth of the code in the binary is sitting there wasted adjusting reference counts. This is much of the reason we're moving to tracing garbage collection.

It's interesting how many strategies Rust tried before settling on linear types.

Thank you!!!

> It's interesting how many strategies Rust tried before settling on linear types.

Rust doesn’t actually have linear types. I’m not sure what Rust’s types are called (affine?), but linear types are the “must be consumed” (can’t leak) types, and Rust doesn’t have any support for this.

Rust’s guarantee is that you MUST NOT use an object after dropping it. Linear types would add the additional requirement that you MUST drop the object.

Rust's types are affine, yes. Sometimes some people don't draw the distinction between the two and call both "linear." But "affine" is more precise.

Fascinating, thank you!

(I completely forgot I wrote that and also I'm mildly embarrassed at how I used to write back then.) :)

Oilpan can theoretically be used as a library as well - see: https://v8.dev/blog/oilpan-library https://v8.dev/blog/tags/cppgc https://chromium.googlesource.com/v8/v8.git/+/HEAD/include/c...

Due to the nature of web engine workloads migrating objects to being GC'd isn't performance negative (as most people would expect). With care it can often end up performance positive.

There are a few tricks that Oilpan can apply. Concurrent tracing helps a lot (e.g. instead of incrementing/decrementing refs, you can trace on a different thread), in addition when destructing objects, the destructors typically become trivial meaning the object can just be dropped from memory. Both these free up main thread time. (The tradeoff with concurrent tracing is that you need atomic barriers when assigning pointers which needs care).

This is on top of the safey improvements you gain from being GC'd vs. smart pointers, etc.

One major tradeoff that UAF bugs become more difficult to fix, as you are just accessing objects which "should" be dead.

> One major tradeoff that UAF bugs become more difficult to fix, as you are just accessing objects which "should" be dead.

Are you referring to access through a raw pointer after ownership has been dropped and then garbage collection is non deterministic?

> Are you referring to access through a raw pointer after ownership has been dropped and then garbage collection is non deterministic?

No - basically objects sometimes have some state of when they are "destroyed", e.g. an Element detached from the DOM tree[1]. Other parts of the codebase might have references to these objects, and previously accessing them after they destroyed would be a UAF. Now its just a bug. This is good! Its not a security bug anymore! However much harder to determine what is happening as it isn't a hard crash.

[1] This isn't a real case, just an example.

Not sure early versions of rust is the best example of refcounting overhead. There are a bunch of tricks you can use to decrease that, and it usually doesn't make sense to invest too much time into that type of thing while there is so much flux in the language.

Swift is probably a better baseline.

Yeah I was thinking the same thing. "10 years ago the Rust compiler couldn't produce a binary without significant size coming from reference counts after spending minimal effort to try and optimize it" doesn't seem like an especially damning indictment of the overall strategy. Rust is a language which is sensitive to binary size, so they probably just saw a lower-effort, higher-reward way to get that size back and made the decision to abandon reference counts instead of sinking time into optimizing them.

It was probably right for that language at that time, but I don't see it as being a generalizable decision.

Swift and ObjC have plenty of optimizations for reference counting that go beyond "Elide unless there's an ownership change".

it's worth noting that percent of instructions is a bad metric since modern CPUs have lots of extra compute, so adding simple integer instructions that aren't in the critical path will often not affect the wall time at all.

The problem is that once threading gets involved they have to be interlocked adjustments and that's very slow due to all the cache coherency traffic. Refcounts are also branches that may or may not be well predicted. And you're filling up icache, which is valuable.

You could have a hybrid recount where you use basic integers when adjusting the ref count on the current thread and atomics to adjust the global count when you hit 0 (hybrid-rc is the crate you can use but something Swift-like where the compiler does ARC for specific values when you opt in may not be the worst). Also when the type isn’t Send then you don’t need to do atomic refcounts although the interaction with unsafe does get a like more complex.

But yeah, at this point Rust’s niche is a competitor to c/c++ and in that world implicit recounting doesn’t have a lot of traction and people favor explicit gc and “manual” resource management (RAII mechanisms like drop and destructors are ok).