Hacker News Reader

Comment by impossiblefork | Hacker News Reader

What would have happened here in Sweden is that if people weren't dressed for the cold they'd probably get shelter somehow-- maybe go home, enter a restaurant or other building.

-30 C is really incredibly cold. You just can't stand around in that without proper clothes.

I think the problem is that a lot of Americans are incredibly servile and will obey employers, authorities etc., even when it's harmful or dangerous. I especially remember a case where a woman was in court and was sexually assaulted by a marshal, right there with the judge ignoring it. But what I found very curious was how he was obeyed, and how the judge was obeyed.

Here in Sweden, neither judge nor marshal would have been obeyed.

I think the servility is probably caused by the experience that employers and authorities can get away with anything, and a fear that they will do worse if challenged or attacked.

View on HN

> -30 C is really incredibly cold.

Environment Canada shows that it was -19ºC (ambient) at the time. The article asserts it was -22ºC with the windchill. Still very cold, but I find it interesting that -30ºC has shown up in the comments more than once. Where does that come from?

The article says "-22" but does not specify if that's °C or °F. When (incorrectly) assuming that Canada is using the Farenheit scale like the U.S., this would convert to -30°C.

> I think the problem is that a lot of Americans are incredibly servile and will obey employers, authorities etc., even when it's harmful or dangerous.

I agree with this observation but will temper it somewhat: I know in the school case, and I imagine in the warehouse case too, there’s a person responsible for checking who’s out so they can tell the fire brigade “everybody’s out of the building” or “all but three people are accounted for” which is super important. This is hard to do when people just scatter.

None of which excuses what happened to this poor man.

Well, this took place in canada. That said, amazon warehouse employees have no leverage and are easy to fire, which I suspect leads to a culture of 'follow the rules or else'.

> employees have no leverage

Amazon's job ad for "Warehouse Team Member" at that location indicates pay 30% above minimum wage plus benefits. That suggests the workers have a reasonable amount of leverage. After all, why would Amazon pay anything more than minimum wage if the workers had no leverage? There is nothing to suggest that Amazon operates as a charity.

> are easy to fire

Not when one is being fired over taking necessary precautions to serve their health and wellbeing. Ontario labour law does not take kindly to that in the slightest. In fact, Ontario regulation requires employers to make that known to the employees, so it isn't even a case of "He didn't know." The, as summed up by the popular TV show based on the nearby town of Listowel, "When a friend asks for help, you help them" explanation is the most likely. It is the Canadian culture to be compliant when someone asks something of you.

There are proposed microfoundations for efficiency wages that do not necessary imply a significant level of bargaining power for an individual worker.

Even if that were true, individual bargaining power is irrelevant here as the workers share a collective agreement that clearly asserts that Amazon will not terminate employment for reasons related to safety.

Logically, the workers knew there was no onus for them to leave their cars. But when your friendly coworker comes along "I know it is warm in there, but can you please come outside with the rest of us who don't have the same luxury?" it is hard in Canadian culture to say no. Rather you get "Sorry. I'll be right there."

In Helsinki we had a fire in the attic of the apartment building. Seriously cold outside. The city sent a bus for people to stay warm in. My cat appreciated it, and I too.

it somehow feels like a lot of middle-managers explain it to themselves that they also just have no choice but to do what they're told from above and boss people around..

.. but imagine if you were that manager that had told people to stand around in the freezing cold and then someone just dropped dead.

or the person above them

.. well i guess they probably don't think about this kind of stuff at all

i'm just having a hard time putting myself in one of those people's shoes

We're "incredibly servile"? Seriously? Go soak your head.

We're "incredibly servile" because of the lack of social safety net programs, healthcare being tied to employment, and wages being so shit compared to CoL that most Americans are about a paycheck or two from being broke. And there's little we can do about it thanks to Citizens United.

> healthcare being tied to employment

He said America, not United States of America. America refers to the combined area of North, South, and Central America. Of which Canada is a part, and, as it happens, Canada is where this took place. Healthcare is not tied to employment in Canada.

> We're "incredibly servile" because of the lack of social safety net programs

All employees in Ontario are covered under a collective agreement that asserts employers will not terminate employment for reasons related to health. Employees who stayed in their cars had no reason to fear for their job. However, they probably did have good reason to fear the mob of people who had nowhere warm to go.

Remember, this warehouse is in the middle of a farmer's field. The nearest settlement is several kilometres away, and the nearest settlement with any reasonable public place to shelter in is tens of kilometres away. There would be no other practical place to go to stay warm other than a car, but not everyone would have a car available to go to. There are other ways to get to work that don't leave you with a personal space heater at your beck and call.

> He said America, not United States of America. America refers to the combined area of North, South, and Central America. Of which Canada is a part, and, as it happens, Canada is where this took place. Healthcare is not tied to employment in Canada.

Sorry, what? The user they're replying to said American, and also referenced a case in court with a Marshal which IIRC don't exist in Canada. They were clearly referring to the US. Which 99% of users who aren't needlessly obtuse would understand with the word American which in English typically refers to someone from the US and not North/South/Central America.

Obviously the article is talking about Canada, but many people in this comment section don't appear to have noticed that and think it happened in the US.

Yes, it has causes, but the second case I mentioned can't be caused by the healthcare stuff, but is actually strict authority obedience, which I think has its origin in impunity for authorities.

The marshal and judge simply would not have been obeyed. Rather they would have faced physical resistance, and possibly have been beaten up or worse, and no one would have been punished for it-- certainly they would have been disarmed.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com