Knockoff Iranian drone sold on Alibaba was meant for war, documents show | Hacker News Reader

Knockoff Iranian drone sold on Alibaba was meant for war, documents show

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78 pointsrntn59 comments

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I never fail to be amazed by the shameless business culture in China.

> “Too many people want to buy it, it’s not a good thing for us,”

> “We are afraid that Alibaba platform will be frozen if Alibaba knows that it’s a weapon.”

> “This item is customized for one big client in UKR [Ukraine],”

> “Our government don’t allow us to sell to countries involved in war,”

What do they possibly think they're gaining by volunteering this information?

No chance in hell it's going to Ukraine. If Russia loses, there is a nuclear powered chaotic nation right next to China which will be it's worst nightmare. There is less than zero possibility of China sending anything to Ukraine.

These statements are just to mislead the public into thinking they are supporting ukraine.

I don't think some random Alibaba seller gives a crap about foreign policy over their bottom line.

There is a large amount of nationalism within China.

To the point where they will destroy products, livestock, equipment, etc; that would be thought to be for China's "enemies" ie: Japan.

It'll just take a moment for the message to get out, and then they'll be rallied to a new hatred, if they need be.

While they certainly had some really bad practices in the past, and I am no fan of the Chinese government, I find it hard to believe (and condescending) that today they are so cartoonishly self-destructive.

What experience do you have with Chinese society?

I'd suggest you go investigate before dismissal.

I said government, not society. And extensive, by the way. I have worked with Chinese partners over months. There is a cultural difference for sure, and substantial parts of it that I find onerous, but nothing I would consider to be "foolishly self destructive". And this is all coming from a privileged position.

Nationalism hasn’t stopped DJI.

There were already cases where Ukrainians used repurposed drones that looked very similar to various Alibaba listings.

If russia can buy American chips and Dutch lithography machines through 3rd countries, sure Ukraine can get some drone on ali.

Suddenly some farmers in * get obscure country from the list * will decide it’s a good idea to deliver pesticides from the air because reasons. For sure supplier will see right through it and will care about plausible deniability first.

The whole titanium cia story happens more often than it doesn’t

I think there is already a nuclear powered chaotic nation right next to China. Why would Russia be more dangerous if they lose than if they win?

I think the idea is that Putin is a stabilizing factor (well, "better the devil you know" might be more accurate), and Russian losing in Ukraine means Putin losing, terminally.

> Ukraine means Putin losing, terminally

Why is that the case?

I mean, we've already seen one rebellion over the war not going so well.

I'm not sure that an ultra-nationalist electing to launch territory-grabbing wars aggression is viewed by anyone as a stabilizing factor. My guess is that China's realpolitik calculation is to give Russia enough rope to hang itself, then they can quietly scoop up, er, "offer humanitarian assistance to," its eastern half.

Putin has been surprisingly tenacious, I'd speculate even in losing the war he'd still be around as long as his body will permit.

One could argue that there are 3 or maybe even 4 nuclear powered chaotic nations that border China

>I think there is already a nuclear powered chaotic nation right next to China.

Four, in fact!

I can think of "one big client in UKR [Ukraine]" which isn't Ukraine and is already using this kind of drone.

"big client in Ukraine" could conceivably mean Russian military/mercenary forces who are literally in Ukraine, having invaded Ukraine.

Maybe a confusing way of phrasing it due to translation?

They probably aren't familiar with US journalistic practices about background, on/off record etc. Prudence would dictate more circumspection, but I prefer frankness to the obfuscatory nonsense that US PR spokespersons foist on the public, with the help of journalists who uncritically repeat it.

Somehow the golden standard for journalism became 'never ask a question you don't know the answer to', which is kind of the opposite of what questions are supposed to achieve.

China is more capitalist than the US.

In what way?

I haven’t been to China, but have traveled quite a bit in Asia. In my experience, you can do most anything for money anywhere. It just takes less money in places with a lower GDP per capita (not accounting for cultural or religious practices).

It's worth visiting (ie A business trip Vs tourist) if you haven't yet and form your own independent impressions vs rely on media and press reporting. Remember that every single media & press publisher anywhere in the world is controlled by some political interest and spins narratives that further their interest.

Is that why 1/3 of industry is state owned? /s

They are not volunteering the information, from their perspective. They are just venting their frustration that their government is not allowing them to do business. They can't really see the geopolitics of it; and morally they think anything that sells is Okay. Not that the West is any different, though usually people in the West are more reasonable than the average Chinese.

"usually people in the West are more reasonable than the average Chinese"

What makes you think that?

Curious what separates a military drone vs a drone used in war. Surely most of the improved flight capabilities would also be useful to consumers who just want to tool around on the weekends.

How long before these military specs filter into the consumer market?

Where do you think those FPV kill-drones are coming from now?

Chinese parts, purchased by third party nations, designed and assembled in Ukraine.

Why?

One difference between suicide drones and hobbyist drones is the design lifetime.

IIRC some of the gasoline engines used on suicide drones are built with a peculiar design that is powerful but wears out in just a matter of minutes. But that's acceptable because it'll still outlast the lifetime of the vehicle.

Another difference is payload configuration.

"PlayStation 2 a Weapons Development Platform?"

https://games.slashdot.org/story/00/04/16/1953243/ps2-a-weap...

You don't want military drones for consumer applications. Consumer drones are designed to last the length of warranty + 1 day. Military drones are designed to last long enough to deliver their cargo or provide essential intel. Because of their limited lifespan, some of them are made of cardboard https://www.defensenews.com/air/2023/09/13/cardboard-drone-v...

Those cardboard-made drones were just a PR move, they never saw real battle, or at least I have never seen any videos involving them (and God knows I refresh r/UkraineRussiaReport/ quite a lot).

you should probably stop getting news from Reddit, for your own health.

Thanks for the unsolicited advice.

SOME parts of Reddit serve as useful aggregators for news that would otherwise be scattered across a dozen Telegram chat groups and 50 Twitter accounts. It's just important to recognize when you are in a DEEEP (and therefore not particularly useful) echo chamber. Admittedly, that can be difficult on Reddit where most the sub-Reddits that give an air of neutral impartiality are some of the most heavily censored and astroturfed.

Why? They're the closest to the reality on the ground out there, which does say something about mainstream media, I agree.

Maybe not video but

>Ukraine claims it damaged prized Russian jets using 'cardboard' drones from Australia in a daring raid https://www.businessinsider.com/ukraine-says-struck-5-russia...

What Ukraine wants right now is DJIs, not Bayraktars.

So it's a bit of reverse, consumer drone tech is superior to military tech when you take price and availability into account.

For frontline use, sure. But they definitely also want cheap long range cruise missiles.

Its already hard for them with Russia using the Iranian Shahed scooter engine drones, but I don't think Russia will be really able to defend its territory against similar drones once Ukraine gets its cheap long range drone production going at speed.

The issue for Ukraine that even it gets the same capacity, it will not exactly be able to bomb the Lancet factory in Elabuga. Russia can keep essential stuff out of range. That's also what it did in WWII.

that doesn't mean there isn't stuff to bomb, stuff that they don't want to spend long range weaponry like ATACMS on.

If ukraine could get a bunch of shahed clones themselves they'd happily use the on russia. They'd also get smaller drones too. They're both useful.

> Curious what separates a military drone vs a drone used in war.

Right now, not that much, as lots and lots of civilian drones are used both by the Russians and Ukrainians for surveillance or for grenade drops.

Usually military drones are bigger (like this Shaheed knock-off from this article) and can do more (usually more destructive) stuff compared to civilian drones, like the Russian Lancet drones.

What is technically the difference between a suicide UAV and a missile? Just speed? Or does it need to have a rocket engine to be a "missile"?

Actually, I guess maybe suicide drones are a subset of missiles.

Loitering?

Yeah, basically a cheap cruise missile. The V-1 flying bomb used in WW2 is classified likewise.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V-1_flying_bomb

Edit: it seems missiles must be jet or rocket powered, definitionally.

It's not a firm thing, but generally "missiles" are understood to be entirely autonomous, where "drones" are operated under some level of human control. But indeed, the distinction is increasingly squishy in the modern world.

missiles have guidance systems but they don't need to be entirely autonomous. For example, the Spike NLOS is a TV guided missile - the operator sees the view from the nose and aims it for greater precision against unmarked targets at range.

I think it technically counts as a missile, but also fits the categories of typical UAVs so there's some ambiguity as to what the "correct" name is.

I'm amazed someone would have enough trust in a random Alibaba vendor to buy a weapons system from them.

You don't necessarily have to just click buy with Paypal and have it turn up. You could also fly out to China and have a look first. Actually one thing I've noticed is Alibaba makes it easy to contact the seller directly whereas ebay and Amazon try to prevent that.

How much?? How many dollar you want??

>The XHZ-50 Fixed Wing UAV was listed at a price of $57,000

DJI Agras T30 is coming up nicely, here with PKM and AT grenade launcher attached https://t.me/karymat/5732 ;)

> “This item is customized for one big client in UKR [Ukraine],”

Is his name Vladmir?

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