Open-relationship enthusiasts crash mainstream romance apps | Hacker News Reader

Open-relationship enthusiasts crash mainstream romance apps

wsj.com

31 pointsandygcook46 comments

Open relationships are nearly impossible to navigate from either side and as someone who has done it on more than one occasion, I very strongly recommend that if you’re considering it, reconsider—hard.

They are often a last ditch effort at offsetting dead bedrooms, relationship problems, or other significant issues and they are often a cause of severe dating stress on you, your primary, and your secondary/tertiary/etc partners.

If you do want to absolutely do it, don’t do it via a mainstream app or don’t do it as a relationship—keep it as a hookup. But, if you insist this is good for you, instead join some sort of tight-knit community that is more open to such alternative relationship styles or you’re going to have a bad time. A really bad time.

In my extensive experience, of those who are open to open/polyamory are either doing it themselves or have serious issues with self-image and/or mental health. Of those who aren’t in these camps, the stress of the relationship dynamics will end up in hurt, pain, and a never-ending conversation about the situation or the lack of separation from the primary.

Again, keep it to hookups or tight-knit pro-open communities and away from those looking for something normal or stable. It’s not fair to anyone involved.

If it’s “working” for you via those mainstream dating communities, you’re either missing/ignoring the issues or you’re in a very tiny minority.

I was in open relationships in Berlin’s polyamorous community for nearly five years and I concur with everything you said.

When I first started down this path my first red flag appeared when I started asking poly people how long they'd been poly. The first 30 people I asked over a period of about 4 months, the longest anyone had been poly was 14 months. It wasn't until I got involved in a smaller alt-art community that I found a few old timers with more than 5 years under their belts, and all of them were solo poly (they live alone, unmarried, but date multiple people).

We used to call "solo poly"... "single".

Single people aren't normally in relationships.

In my experience with the local gay scene, it’s common for stable, long term relationships to be open. Maybe this fits what you said about “tight-knit pro-open communities” but it’s not like we intentionally self-selected to combine poly people together. Maybe it’s some difference in relationship dynamics related to gender expectations.

As a gay, I think that we actually have a lot of self-exceptionalism around the abuse of younger men by poly/open men in legal marriages with their primary. There's a lot of solidified marriages around fucking younger men and having a mortgage with the old same-sex ball and chain. I think it's a sort of normalized abuse we haven't even begun to reckon with.

I can understand how that would be abusive in some cases. But it doesn’t match what I see. A lot of time people in these relationships engage in more like what straight people call “swinging”, and there may not be any significant age gap. Even when there is an age gap, it usually doesn’t seem abusive to me. A lot of the times the younger partner is more outgoing, is actually the main person coordinating socialization and in that sense has a lot of agency. But there are endless configurations and it is hard to generalize.

When I have seen abuse, it’s usually either someone who is controlling of their (only or primary) partner, or a single person who acts predatory (maybe too creepy to get in any deep relationship). A “third” or fling usually would have much less tying them to the relationship and can more easily cut and run if things aren’t fun.

Then again I don’t want to deny the existence of abuse just because I haven’t seen it, people cover stuff up and it’s good to speak out.

FYI your account is in a semi-banned state. This comment was marked as dead and I could only see it because I have “showdead” setting turned on. I vouched for this specific comment so it might be visible now.

I realized at one point that the math associated with Brook’s Law—ie the chance of project failure scaling to n(n-1)/2, the number of communications paths between n people who have to cooperate with each other to achieve the result—probably applied to many kinds of open and poly/ethical-non-monogamous relationships as well.

The degree of drama I’ve anecdotally seen them stir up seemed to support my hypothesis. I avoid them now.

50% of marriages end in divorce. I think of that statistic as a probability of failure for a life long monogamous relationship. I don't think there's any argument that can convince me that increasing the number of partners reduces or does not increase the probability at which a relationship between 2 people will end up in heart break and hurt feelings.

Human beings are naturally envious and covetous creatures. Everyone loves to talk about other people's love lives, and maintains strong opinions about how they should be, while paradoxically relating to the fact that love makes fools of us all.

Meanwhile journalists rest more and more on sexual politics to elicit interest in a public who is very tired of what they have to say.

How about we build stuff, and let people worry about their own love lives?

https://archive.ph/a3Bps

There should absolutely be a filter for non-monogamous users. If you can filter by age and height, why can't you filter for monogamy?

Some apps, like Ok Cupid, have this. Others like Tinder give you the option to set “intention” such as short-term or casual, but that doesn’t necessarily equate to non-monogamy. Apps like Hinge allow you to specify that you’re non-monogamous, but don’t allow you to filter by it.

The apps are, by and large, very aware of these audiences and simultaneously averse to catering to them. Which is odd - the major shift to subscription-based Boosts, Super Likes, etc, is all geared towards keeping people using your dating app. The people most likely to want to come back are either A) those not finding a lasting monogamous relationship, or B) those who are open to finding more than one partner.

As a man, there's enough poly people to notice, but not so much it becomes an inconvenience. Is it way worse for women on these apps? Not a woman so idk what the # of poly guys is on dating apps.

I have good close friends, they are a little younger than me, in their mid 40s - in a poly relationship, perhaps the difference I see in their relationship is it opened up after decades of commitment, raising children and the trust and communication skills that developed with that task. In them, I see none of the illness, narcissism or duplicity you describe, but also they are not on apps, only their closest friends would know. The live their life and don’t go yelling poly all the time. I expect their quiet unadvertised experience is fairly common

What a sad premise. People who don't want the same thing I want are ruining dating apps for me? I know that calling people entitled is a bit of a meme now but... really?

I mean, it's not just poly people. What about kinksters, single parents, people with disabilities, drug users, bisexuals, poors etc? Why can't everyone on the normal people dating app just be normal like me and want the same normal things that I want?

Sounds suffocating.

A lot of uninformed my-partner-never-gets-off-thinking-about-others, all-of-these-are-mentally-ill-people-in-failing-sinking-partnerships and this-is-society-degrading-to-psychopaths-let’s-go-back-to-1920s-marriages. Got some news about granny’s relationships back then and how liberal that time actually was. I’m not in a polyamorous relationship, but if you’re scared or appalled by other people being themselves, I guarantee you have a psychological issue and people you love around you are not opening up to you as much about themselves as you might wish. Life is letting you by.

There is an epidemic of narcissists in society which is not being talked about enough. And when I say "Narcissist," you have to understand it goes WAY BEYOND the idea of "oh, this person is just selfish."

I was BLINDSIDED by running into a woman at work who was: - Dating a dozen different men - On every dating app - Pathologically flirting with new men everywhere she goes - Flirting with me and co-workers - Texting / Calling me all the time at odd hours - Living a lifestyle of traveling all over the place every weekend, maintaining multiple relationships with multiple men at the same time - Constantly on the hunt for new men - Meeting and immediately texting broad and deep with new men on the spot - Deliberately hurting / breaking up with men in a nasty way just to enjoy harming them and gaining power over them

IT WAS WEIRD.

It wasn't until I learned about Covert Narcissism and how it is a really severe psychological condition that I understood what I was seeing.

These are the people who are pretending to be "polygamous" or "dating multiple people." It is NOT NORMAL and NOT HEALTHY and you DO NOT WANT IT AROUND YOU TRUST ME.

Society has become extremely sick, and social media, dating apps have given the sickest people the equivalent of methamphetamines to feed their addiction for relationship "supply" nonstop.

IF you grew up in the prior era, you may not understand JUST HOW BAD AND TOXIC IT HAS GOTTEN. It has FALLEN APART.

Stay away from these people, learn to spot them, they are sneaky and out to harm you ( I was personally harmed by this woman who was playing games with me ).

There needs to be broader awareness of narcissists, how they act and how to spot and avoid them. They are a societal cancer and the cancer is spreading.

These sorts of people have been around forever.

They have been. But in the old times such behavior would quickly get you labelled as a village slut and become avoided by most people.

But in the social media age companies need such people to generate content that drives engagement, and serves a a conduit for ads. This creates incentives for such destructive behavior, and forces such people into others' attention spans, reinforcing the loop.

I think it was also just harder to do at scale.

In the aftermath of his death, we discovered that one of my great grandfathers had a whole other family a few villages over, and neither family knew of the other. Being logistically limited to just two groups probably helped make it "work".

Yes, but COVID and social media has put them on STEROIDS.

> I was personally harmed by this woman who was playing games with me

Let's assume you were a willing participant. I don't know your situation, how it developed, what kind of tricks they used to make you a consenting person, but, if you think deeply and objectively, you were.

Looking back on the bad relationships I had, with the wisdom, reflections and experience that age and life give us, I realize that I could have said no, taken a different path, lived a different life. Sure, they were bad, and I was bad with them and with others, but there was no chain holding me there, except the one I myself was willing to fasten around my ankle, perhaps because I was lonely, or scared, or immature. Or because sex was amazing, and they were a great cook, so sweet when they wanted to be.

Bad relationships should make us reflect on the faults of others, but especially on our own shortcomings. At least, that is I see them today, and my life got much better because of it.

I wouldnt have believed what happened to me until it happened.

If you are not familiar with narcissistic abuse, they approach pretending to be someone they are not. They pretend to be your mirror, study you, use your language, mirror you.

Then they begin abusing you, it triggers something called a "Trauma Bond."

I had never experienced or even heard of this before. I could not stop thinking about her.

It is extremely addictive and sinister. The only solution was to get away to break the trauma bond.

These are things you simply cannot understand if you have never experienced it. I am a different person now, I never knew that something like this could happen.

Yes it's a common form of abuse, it's common because it's easy, it's easy because the "victim" is asking for it.

Self improvement work is a better outcome than witch hunting.

Incredibly insightful take that I agree wholeheartedly with.

Narcissists are absolutely a thing, but it sounds like you're conflating two groups.

The poly relationships I know, and the open relationships I know, just aren't even close to what you're describing. Even the closest singular example to what you're describing — one out of a dozen people who are open about being poly and a dozen more who are open about being open — was, despite being extremely selfish, not sadistic as the person you describe appears to be.

If they are open with it, that is definitely not narcissism I agree.

If they hide it, plus express all the other dark triad traits (sadistic / malignant behavior) I agree its different.

I don't see what this has to do with Narcissism. It's certainly a problem in society but I'm not seeing it here.

You did just describe a woman into "findom." They tend to be sadistic to their "paypigs," jerking them around (but not off) while extracting as much money as possible from them and dumping/extorting them in some humiliating manner.

FinDom is when you know what you are getting into it and do it anyways.

If you hire someone to dominate you, because you enjoy it, that is between you and them.

If someone comes into your life, mirrors you, pretends to be into everything you are into, gathers personal info pretending to be someone they are not, then turns it around and begins abusing you.

That is covert malignant narcissim.

Fun covert narcissism fact 1: Covert narcissism (with focus on both grandiose and shame) has a statistically significant greater relative amount of personal reference in writing (how often they talk about themselves vs others).

Fun covert narcissism fact 2: The Apostle Paul, the "I'm the least of the apostles" and "I'm not less than the greatest apostles" guy, has a startlingly significant amount of personal reference in his authentic letters as compared to the non-Pauline Epistles to the point the Corinthians even seemingly commented on how much he talks about himself.

Judas fits the covert narcissist persona. He gains your trust then betrays you in the worst way imaginable.

Reading this thread has been fascinating.

Most people have never experienced it.

If you have been through it, YOU KNOW WHAT I AM TALKING ABOUT.

Everyone else: "Nah thats normal."

WHAT HAPPENED TO ME IS NOT FUCKING NORMAL

If it's not normal, then we can't extrapolate generalities from it, either. It's just an anecdote. One dude's anecdote. On the internet.

Your experience was undeniably terrible and her behavior is highly unethical (yet not criminal...) but you're simply incorrect in ascribing this to a particular clinical disorder. She's found a grift that works. That makes her a grifter, not a Narcissist.

Want to meet a real Narcissist? Go talk to any businessman convicted of fraud who continues to insist they're the greatest investment advisor ever, they did nothing wrong and everyone is just out to get them.

Or the covetous types who complain that everyone else has nicer things than them and so they deserve to have even better things-- for no real reason. They're not hardworking or successful, but they expect all the rewards of a lifetime of labor to just be handed to them because they deserve it. Your abuser was willing to actually do the work of fleecing people.

I get where you're coming from-- she exhibits behaviors from the covert Narcissism checklist. This is not the only diagnosis these behaviors are associated with. If that helps you name-and-tame the trauma, more power to you-- I started there myself and have since found the world of behavioral analysis is not limited to the domain of Narcissism. For example, autism is easily confused with Narcissism (not that I'm saying it applies here).

> Covert narcissism (with focus on both grandiose and shame) has a statistically significant greater relative amount of personal reference in writing (how often they talk about themselves vs others).

So does autism.

This pop-psychology crap needs to stop. It makes society a theocratic hell to live in.

Unrelated: are you a programmer by any chance?

Being downvoted because GenZ has accepted a set of social norms which are NOT NORMAL AND HEALTHY FOR SOCIETY.

But ok, go ahead. Downvote away.

Or more likely because your anecdote is conflating with no justification two different things.

Also, SHOUTING.

I don't read articles. What does the headline mean by "crash"? Like gate-crashing a party?

If you’re a normal person you’re better off just going offline and seeking actual connections.

Most of these open relationship and poly whatever people.. kinda weird people to begin with. Let them live online and in therapy. It’s just not a normal way to live regardless of how much people defend it lol so the sooner normal people realize that happiness and love is found offline the better.

Personally I am all in on VR and stuff like that so normal people can finally enjoy being outside while all the others are forever online doing whatever. Not my problem, it’s contained. Everyone will have a place they can find happiness which is the most utilitarian solution.

> If you’re a normal person you’re better off just going offline and seeking actual connections.

The majority of US folks find relationship partners via apps these days. It's nearly the only actively-looking place remaining.

"It’s just not a normal way to live regardless of how much people defend it lol"

Growing up in the 80s I heard this all the time from the people around me, but in reference to being gay. I'm glad I shrugged that off.

One difference IME is that everyone I know who went down the open-relationship did it to try and solve their current relationship problems. No gay person I know decided to be gay to try and solve their problems.

> No gay person I know decided to be gay to try and solve their problems.

I suppose problems could arise by trying not to be gay in a time/place where it's been deemed abnormal or immoral, hence just being the gay person you are would solve some of those problems. If you're incapable of being faithful in a monogamous relationship, that's a real concern and a huge red flag, but one way to solve ot in the near-term would be to stop trying monogamous relationships, whether or not it's the cause or effect of it not working. Suppose you eventually go to therapy and realize you were habitually cheating for some other reason, problem is still mitigated somewhat by avoiding the context where those problems arise, much like avoiding skid row when drug addiction causes you problems.

Sounds like a normal thing to do, if you ask me, to try a different kind of relationships if you have problems with your current relationship.

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