Americans are spending billions on stuff they forget to cancel
wsj.com
wsj.com
It should be shame that also falls on them, but somehow we give businesses a pass. No matter how awful or shameful, people say 'it's business' and those magic words absolve every evil. If you took monthly payment from your elderly neighbor to shovel their walk and it never snowed, it would be shameful to keep taking it - people's opinions of you would change negatively if they heard about it. If you said 'well, they have autopay setup and didn't stop it', you would look even worse!
If it's business to business, that's more on both sides.
Myself would like to know how that works in detail.
I disagree. I routinely go months in between using some of my various subscriptions - be it Netflix, Hulu, Audible, etc. I would be very upset if they cancelled on me... I maintain the subscriptions because I can afford to do so and because I enjoy the convenience of having it available when I want it without having to go through some sort of account activation ritual.
People need to have personal responsibility. Review your bank/credit accounts and cancel subscriptions if you want - it's your money so take responsibility.
This line of reasoning reminds me of the petulant discussion revolving around overdraft fees... as-if it's difficult to spend 3 seconds tapping a button in your banking app.
The downside, of course, is that this does mean you can't ride the Personal Responsibility bicycle and look down at a generally frazzled and overloaded population, but that's a sacrifice I'm willing to have you make.
"Frazzled and overloaded" is not an excuse for not looking at your bank account one time in 6 months or longer. That's just plain old fashioned irresponsible.
If you are at a stage in life where a $10 subscription is hurting, then it stands to reason you should monitor those things.
This is a poor perspective to have, and the purpose of government is to protect its citizens from predatory behavior. You're entitled to the opinion, but I vote for people who protect citizens, because that is where the greatest value is in aggregate improvement (vs "personal responsibility"). Existing is different levels of difficulty for everyone, and personal responsibility projection is of little value. But it is great if you're crushing it taking care of yourself.
(very similar to overdraft fees and upcoming rules to compress them by the Biden admin and the CFPB)
And we know that, because Apple basically mandated it with App Store subscriptions. Cancelling subscriptions there takes seconds. And we also know that the various subscription companies absolutely hate it.
The one that specifically burns me to no end is I recall hearing from a friend that they were on the phone with a representative from one of those meditation apps trying to cancel their subscription, and just, your product literally is made for people who struggle with mental health issues and especially anxiety, and making that base of customers jump through social hoops of fire, and argue with another person and make them stand their ground on wanting to cancel, is a SUPREMELY CLASSLESS MOVE.
My idea of doing this would be to force banks, MasterCard, Visa, PayPal, Stripe et cetera to have easy-to-list-easy-to-cancel subscriptions. Just two buttons, one to turn the subscription into an invoice you manually have to pay to keep going and one that cancels it outright through the payment provider.
That should hurt businesses more the more consumer hostile they are.
You might as well be saying that people should take personal responsibility and do their taxes manually if they don't want to pay $50/year to use turbotax instead of pushing for a system where the government sends you an estimate that is likely to be correct for most people (since they're already doing that anyway).
This isn't a great comparison. Looking through a bank statement once a month and clicking "end subscription" takes a few minutes for anyone. Doing your taxes manually is much more difficult. This is the easiest economic decision to choose to stop partipating in in the history of the earth.
If we take the premise that 10 minutes to review your finances a month and then cancel unused subscriptions is not a burden(and good luck with canceling in 10 minutes) then doing basic taxes takes less time than a full yearly review.
There are a great many people here who argue that doing ones taxes are an impossible burden and the government should automate it away since they have the (most of) the data.
However here it should fall upon the individual to do all this labor in a case where the business has this information already compiled.
Unfortunately people for whom $10/mo hurts are usually working three part time jobs while also trying to get the kids to/from school and take care of them. So I can see why they might not have time.
So you are suggesting that these three part time jobs offer more than $60/h and thus are more valuable than a 10 minute finance review where you identify your misspending of $10/mo?
That is an absurdly short time for a meaningful financial review for anyone- whether they have a lot of financial transactions or if they don't (and may be unfamiliar or have anxiety about their finances). Especially if they have kids and serious responsibilities- these companies bank on you forgetting or being too exhausted to change.
I never put any sort of subscription on ACH. All subscriptions go onto credit cards. There were gradually increasing amounts from Netflix, which I got emails about, which I cancelled once I got the emails telling me the price was increasing once again. I waited 6 months because I already had an idea of what I was paying for, when I checked, it turned out there was nothing unexpected.
You calling me names because you can’t formulate a valid argument does not dispute that fact. It weakens your argument and goes against the nature of this site.
Six months in five minutes? How many transactions? (and did you remember them all?) How many different credit cards? How about your bank statements, other accounts, etc?
I still stand by the statement that 10 minutes is an absurdly small amount of time for a meaningful review of anyone's finances, and find your claim that you did it in 5 minutes very surprising. I would ask you to show me, but not interested in watching you take a dump :)
Why not point this logic to companies and ask them to do this for their customers? Surely you can see the value in saving every one of your customers 10 minutes.
I know I don’t have the time for the high transactional overhead of most subscriptions. As such, I don’t subscribe to anything beyond insurance and internet service.
Would it be nice to have other subscriptions? Sure, probably, but the (time) cost is more than I’m willing to bear.
If you can’t afford it, you can’t afford it.
Choose to improve things, even if your ideal is that everyone would take care of it themselves.
It’s all win except for the companies getting free money for no reason. Why not fix this?
[edit] put it this way: if easy visibility into subscriptions and standardized, easy cancellation mechanisms were already mandated, would there be a strong case for changing that?
Cool that you are mentally and physically fit, I am as well.
But there are lots of people who struggle with range of mental disorders or disabilities. Some might have depression some might have ADHD, some might just be much more forgetful so they might think it is good to check account balance but 30 mins later they just don’t feel or remember they had to do it.
That businesses and advocates play dumb when it comes to this basic fact is no longer astonishing to me, sadly
I would say they don’t even have to refund automatically but maybe send an email at least - “Hey are you still with us?” - after they see no activity on account for a month and we also know for sure they track user activity very closely.
But we know - no one will even propose implementing such an email because it will be loss for the company. So that would be action for government to enforce.
Doesn't this just add another hull to the titanic? People don't have 2 minutes to check their bank statements a month, but do have time to check their email regularly enough to catch this? I can't tell who this is for that would be strong enough to require governments to get involved.
Proposing that they refund money would be realistic if they would at least agree to send out email - which I do believe will never happen.
So refunding money is fantasy, sending out emails is realistic but since they won’t do it, that makes refunds even more unlikely.
Thing with returning tv would be more “I did not watch 10 days this month, reimburse these for me.”.
I don’t agree it should go this direction.
If someone did not even open list of movies for whole month or two that is a reasonable question to ask - should they get money back or at least a question via email if they really want any to keep the subscription.
I hope you wouldn't ask a person who gets harassed by their boss to take personal responsibility, and such a relationship is a lot less asymmetric in terms of power balance than corporation-consumer relationships are.
For these subscriptions, the customer holds not just equal power, but all the power. Clicking unsubscribe really isn't very difficult. If corporations held any power, some of them wouldn't try dark patterns.
Between large corporations and large governments, most areas of our daily life are impacted in some way. I prefer to think that I can take personal responsibility in spite of an authority attempting to take that away from me "for my own good."
What's wrong with asking businesses to simply not charge you if you don't use the service? You can play the blame game all day, but that doesn't actually give us any reason why not. "Cars shouldn't have seatbelts because you can just not crash your car" is a similar line of thinking that also doesn't make very much sense. Why shouldn't the car manufacturer take some level of responsibility?
Dying in a car crash is much worse than accidentally paying for Netflix so carmakers have a heightened responsibility to try and prevent it.
It doesn’t really map to the scenario at all, “dying in a car crash” isn’t a service people intentionally sign up for and then change their minds about.
Obviously the answer is that they CAN do that, but don't. It's nothing to do with responsibility and everything to do with them making a cheap buck off of human forgetfulness.
They do, through safety tests and improving it over the decades.
Pay-per-view services exist. Customers seem to prefer subscriptions.
Any subscription model works by amortising costs over a large population, which always means that some people will benefit more than others. To prevent businesses from charging for unused subscriptions, the only solution would be to ban subscriptions altogether and have everything on a pay-per-use basis. That would also include internet subscriptions and transit passes.
If Netflix will let you pay $2 to buy something from them, they sure don't advertise it. So this assertion requires what the customer wants to buy to be fungible. It's a mindset that requires one to implicitly accept the idea of content-as-gruel, and I think most people don't do that.
It also implies that people are rational and responsive actors and habituation doesn't exist, which isn't true either.
https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2023/06/ftc-sues-amazon-...
I don’t think it is entirely fair to demand personal responsibility when the adversary has so much more resources and incentives for making it hard to cancel.
This personally affected my friend. English was not their first language and they were tricked by Amazon into signing up for Prime. The extra charges and difficulty of canceling caused much distress for their limited budget.
We have pages and pages of charges each month, between groceries, camps, classes, school fees, school projects, birthday gifts, and now and then a teen grabbing coffee with friends.
I usually looks the bill quickly and see if there are any large purchases unexplained for, and of course credit card descriptions are very opaque sometimes. Noticing that month to month we had a Peacock subscription that someone signed up for as a promo, and never watched again, means I need to notice the one charge on page 3 AND poll all the family that yes no one watches.
If someone doesn't binge and their lifestyle includes watching things more consistently, they will pay a higher price to subsidize people who don't manage their own money. It is of course possible to accommodate everything by adding all kinds of choices but it costs time and effort and complexity to setup those systems, and those costs are always passed down to the consumer. As someone who manages my own financial life, I'd prefer not to pay those costs for people who don't.
I doubt the ability to look down will go away either, people who lack even this minimal amount of personal responsibility have endless ways of losing money and falling behind those who strive for personal responsibility. It's very costly and difficult for third parties to fix this kind of financial apathy.
And that makes me think a little more. So after doing that thinking, here's what I realized.
It can still be about Personal Responsibility for you and the other person if you have to pay your own freight about it. In fact--it's more! You get to exercise so much more Personal Responsibility when you aren't being subsidized by other people, even. When you are standing on your own two feet in such a Personally Responsible manner.
Isn't that nice?
The easiest and most efficient way for a company to know that you're not providing value to them is by cancelling your subscription. I agree that companies making this difficult is bad, but many services don't make this difficult. Instead, you're asking them to read the mind of their customers which is not easy. Netflix does treat extreme periods of inactivity (IIRC more than a year I think?) as a reasonable signal that you've forgotten about it.
> You get to exercise so much more Personal Responsibility when you aren't free-riding off other people, even.
I don't think you're really understanding the point. People who don't exercise any personal responsibility over their finances are the ones who are free-riding off people who do. That's because when you don't manage your finances and you refuse to shoulder the cost for that, the time & effort and complexity it costs to accommodate that has to be paid by someone who isn't you.
Edit: I'm not sure there's anything I can say to sway your mind about this since you've really honed in on the emotional angle to this but I think it's worth pointing out that this isn't really a moralizing thing to me, I have been and know many people who fall short, I don't treat it morally. It's largely about resource allocation and behavioral incentives. Asking central organizations like a corporation to infer the correct thing for lots of consumers is very difficult and costly, it's overall much more efficient to ask consumers to signal their desires themselves, it's why markets tend to be more efficient. Making consumers pay the cost of mismanaging their finances also discourages them from doing it, increasing efficiency.
The point is that this is a choice by content businesses. Pausing and resuming payments could easily be frictionless, but it isn’t.
I generally disagree with dark patterns that make it onerously difficult to cancel, but many streaming services (like Netflix) don't make it that difficult and pausing and resuming payments is already easy enough. I just have to actually do it, not ask them to read my mind.
Auto-cancellation or whatever is never ever going to happen. Unless forced by regulation I suppose, which I don’t see a reason for. We’re not talking about fraud or deception, just the general day-to-day scumminess of capitalism.
All that said, I don’t think your argument carries the weight you think it does. “I’m happy my underutilization of a service subsidizes other users” isn’t a compelling story to me and doesn’t seem like a net benefit. To each their own.
(Anyway, a binger whose usage is equivalent to a non-binge watcher, except concentrated rather than diffuse, is not actually underutilizing the service and isn’t really who we’re talking about here. I think.)
But here's the rub. While it is true that any given person in practice might benefit from such a pricing scheme, it isn't true that everyone could in principle benefit from such a pricing scheme. The model depends intrinsically on uneven and non-maximal usage of the service, which is what the aforementioned subsidizing is doing. For it to work, it requires that a large share of people overpay for the service, where overpaying means paying more than the value of what you receive (by definition, if you don't use a service, then you are overpaying). If everyone were using the service maximally, there would be no difference between paying for how much you use and paying a flat rate, because you can be sure that the service provider would raise prices to cover costs and reap profits.
So no one is doing you any favors here. Poor utilization is not just an "oops" on the part of the subscriber, but an essential feature of the business model. If everyone was being "personally responsible", the business model simply wouldn't work. And because this isn't a charity, the idea of being happy about subsidizing others users is kind of weird.
So two natural questions to ask are:
1. What could a pay-as-you-go model look like in such cases? Could it cover the expenses of the service? Arguably, no. Those who don't use much would probably continue not to use much. Those who do might reduce consumption, because now you must pay for what you use.
2. Is there a morally sound justification for paying at least a base rate for an unused or underutilized utility to keep it afloat (perhaps charging additionally according to usage)? Putting aside all utilitarian arguments, which I take to be unacceptable, we can find a number of cases that seem to operate similarly that we do not appear to object to. Take the salary, for example. One is not payed strictly according to the value one provides, though you could argue that salary is, ideally, a method of paying for the value provided in a diffuse way (value provided previous year reflected in the following year, esp. bonuses, or upfront payment with expectation of value). So salary doesn't seem quite the same. What about the fact that you can use the service on demand? This is like having a driver who gets payed for being on-call. It seems like this may be a good analogue to begin with to try to grasp the ethical and economic reality of the subscription model in question.
Firstly, I wasn't talking about under-utilization, I was comparing equivalent usage but one person watches most of their media consistently week by week while others binge a lot of content in a month and then take a break. They are not subsidizing each other in a normal monthly subscription model, they are just using the service in different patterns. But if the binger only paid for the month he binges, he's paying less but still consuming the same bandwidth.
Secondly, personal responsibility means different things to different people. It's absurd to suggest that if everyone was "personally responsible" they'd all be spending as much time as possible streaming TV shows to maximally utilize their media subscription. That's like saying the personally responsible thing to do with health insurance is be as sick as possible so you get the most amount of medical care for your buck. That's like saying the personally responsible thing to do in a buffet is to eat as much as humanly possible.
Most people are not hellbent on squeezing the last drop of value out every service, they accept the simplicity of a consistent monthly price so they don't have to spend the mental overhead of financially evaluating every single thing they consume. If you want to financially evaluate everything, you can go to a digital or retail store and buy one movie or TV season at a time, that way no one is subsidizing anyone else, but a lot of people think that kind of sucks.
The benefit you get in return is variety. In a buffet, it's easy to try small bites that you would otherwise be hesitant to pay full price for and you don't have to financially regret every bad bite of food.
Yeah, some people get less bang for their buck than others but not everyone is obsessed with coming out ahead.
This was Clay Shirky's argument at least a couple decades back about why microtransactions don't generally work. At least for optional small purchases making continuous "Is this 5 cent purchase worth it?" decisions is exhausting.
Music probably provides a better test case for this than video in general because you don't really many exclusives. Given the starting point of a lot of ripped/downloaded music, I could probably dispense with music streaming and just buy an album or two now and then but it's close enough to breakeven I don't bother.
I am actually talking about this here. It sounds like you understood my point but also think this is not what I'm talking about? I'm not saying I underutilize my service, I am actually talking about equivalent usage except concentrated rather than diffuse. When you ask companies to automatically omit fees for months of inactivity, you are punishing users who diffuse their use while rewarding users who concentrate their use.
> I mean, for starters this whole conversation is fantasy because streamers, or really, businesses in general, will never on their own initiative stop taking taking money from customers.
Literally false. Netflix did this because they're not trying to build a business on tricking people who don't want their product. But it's a fairly long period of inactivity because anything less and it's not clear if they actually forgot or not https://about.netflix.com/en/news/helping-members-who-havent...
No I get that, my point is that the usage pattern you’re describing isn’t really relevant here.
> Literally false. Netflix did this…
Great!
People who fail to cancel their subscriptions are not free-riding off anyone, they're paying $X per billing period.
> Asking central organizations like a corporation to infer the correct thing for lots of consumers is very difficult and costly
Usage based billing isn't that hard. It's just less profitable.
They're not free-riding currently, but what the parent is suggesting is that streaming subscriptions don't charge for months without activity.
> Usage based billing isn't that hard. It's just less profitable.
Creating alternative usage-based billing models when most customers are happy with a monthly model is hard and has real costs. There are already storefronts with a more usage-based model: stuff like iTunes and Google Play Store let you pay per movie & episode, that's typically what consumers use when they don't like a monthly billing model.
But, by that same logic, they should just be charging you by how much you watch. So it's no longer "don't charge them for the month they didn't view" but, instead, "charge them $X/minute watched". If you're going to go with usage based billing, go with usage based billing.
So you -did- use your insurance this (and every) month. You didn't-claim- from insurance, but that's incidental.
Insurance exists to give you peace of mind (or more technically act as a hedge against your risk). You got that benefit/peace/hedge so you used your insurance.
Now, if we take this thought, you could argue that Netflix isn't there to provide "show x" which you may, or may not, watch. Rather its there yo provide you with the -option- to watch show x. Whether you watch it or not is up to you.
I feel this comparison is not equivalent though because risk is very real, while selling a "Netflix option" seems very contrived.
Gym memberships operate the same way. Planet fitness could not operate if all paying members showed up at once. This freeloading behavior that is built into the pricing model is very similar to advertising, philosophically speaking.
The company would have to cover the costs, likely split between some expected decrease in churn and the rest in a price increase.
If the service is willing to afford eating that cost today, why wouldn't they do a price decrease across the board? Surely they'd rather help those who most use their service rather than the minority that pays but doesn't use it.
Sure there are a lot of complexities, but it's not that horrendous as someone who literally worked on recurring payments for a bank. You just simplify things by making it a pull system. A recurring payment is just authorization from the bank to withdraw up to X dollars every Y days/months/year (you want a design like this to avoid dealing with holidays and weekends on the bank side which vary for every country).
Don't recognize the charge? Deal with it immediately. Get a charge for something you need to cancel? Deal with it immediately.
ADHD is not an excuse to hold zero personal responsibility. Find a way to manage your life that works for you. You're not the only person with ADHD... don't let it be a crutch for mismanaging/neglecting your life.
Not sure which discussions you call "petulant" but banks high-to-low ordering payments is predatory against people who lack liquidity. (Simple example: if you have $500 in your account, and the following transactions happen in sequence in a day: a +$200 deposit and a -$600 rent deduction, some banks will specifically override chronological order and process -$600 first so that you get an overdraft charge, despite having positive balance all the way when processing chronologically.) This is might not be a common problem for a lot of users of this website (though see a sibling comment re: ADHD), but the problem is real, not "petulance". https://www.nber.org/digest/202103/bank-ordering-debit-charg...
Of course this only happens to you and me, whereas banks can and do use daylight overdraft and can easily go billions in overdraft: https://www.federalreserve.gov/paymentsystems/psr_dlod.htm (There is a 50 basis points charge for uncollateralized overdrafts (and none for collaterized) but that is less meaningful in relative terms than $30 charge for people in above scenarios.)
Indeed, and as the article also mentions, banks will intentionally maximize the number of overdraft fees by reordering transactions in a way that causes most pain. This should not be legal.
Do people need to have personal responsibility when they operate a business? Why is responsibility any less there?
I think it's irresponsible to exploit other people's mistakes (unless they are a competing business, and not always then either). It happens incidentally sometimes at minimal cost, but at high cost or when it can be avoided, it's the businessperson's responsibility to not do it.
Every one makes mistakes; you too. Forgive us our tresspasses, as we forgive those who tresspass ...
It's not. They should be ensuring the service being paid for is available. That's their responsibility.
It's trivial for someone like Netflix to know, and they probably already track it.
It does matter that it's easier. In fact it can be automated. If a user is inactive for 30 days, the subscription could be disabled and automatically reenabled if and when they decide to use it. You wanna argue that would be a lot of work to implement?
And yes, I think this would be reasonable for someone like Netflix, and unreasonable for a paper magazine. What's so hard to understand about that? they're just not comparable.
Because a previous comment said it wouldn't require work. Now you also are saying they'd need to implement it. So we agree it needs work.
> Just admit your argument made no sense
Framing this as "admit" might make it seem like a fait accomplis, but I need a higher bar than that to be persuaded. Biased language only fools very basic readers.
> they're just not comparable.
Why not?
Life is too short to waste energy clinging onto bad arguments simply out of spite or poor self-esteem. Embrace cummingham's law.
Have a good life.
> Review your bank/credit accounts
I mean, shouldn't it be your responsibility to know exactly how much money you've made and spent? Why should a bank provide this information for you? Does this not serve as yet another lessening of personal accountability (pun *absolutely* intended)?
It's not "personal responsibility" or "ethical business". It's both.
Are there really people who struggle with not canceling subscriptions? It's genuinely hard for me to see how that's not a choice.
I could understand if we're talking about something like gambling addiction, where there's a compulsion.
But there's no addiction here. There's no scam. There's no taking advantage of children.
There's literally nothing but asking adults to be aware of their finances and to cancel subscriptions they don't want to pay for any longer. It's the absolute lowest bar I can possibly think of in terms of basic financial skills.
But otherwise, what are businesses doing to "maximize your chance of forgetting"? That's not a thing. That's not something they have control over or can maximize. For monthly subscriptions, you see it every month on your credit card. For yearly subscriptions, companies generally send a notice a ~week before, reminding you that you'll be charged, and then you get a receipt emailed.
That seems entirely reasonable to me. The rest is called personal responsibility. When you sign up for a subscription, you know full well what you're doing. You know it will continue until you cancel. There's absolutely nothing unethical about it being your responsibility to cancel.
As I've already mentioned, we agree that personal responsibility is important. I believe we can also agree that some people are unable to be fully responsible for reasons that escape them (depression, severe ADHD, other more pressing responsibilities like children who aren't doing well, etc.)
I think it takes a special kind of misanthropy to suggest that it's fine for companies to base their business model on the fact that such people will pay for a service they aren't using. I am not arguing for legislature or anything of the sort, but I still think it's unambiguously unethical.
It is, in the most literal sense, exploitative.
So why not also enjoy the convenience of only paying for what you actually use?
Additionally, hard disagree on your conclusions since it's not about being responsible or not; it's about the process of cancelling subscriptions being convoluted, unfriendly and filled with dark patterns.
Here's an alternate proposition: what if you could quickly and easily cancel any unwanted subscriptions directly through your banking app? Right there next to your expenses statements? What if we took it even further such that you could not only cancel right there but even request a refund for unused billing periods?
And taking it to an absurd extreme: what if you suddenly went into a coma and woke up 50 years later to a large bill from a subscription service you didn't use all this time? Was it a lack of personal responsibility?
Don't expect the police to track the guy down
I also can afford to do that but if that isn’t throwing money away I don’t know what is. I only consistently pay subscriptions that I consistently use. I feel like resubscribing is pretty easy and painless also, so not sure why you’d pay for something you know you don’t use consistently?
First, it is not the responsibility of the business to ensure people use the product that the business sold them. Why should it be? This standard doesn't exist for companies providing physical products. Someone could order a meal kit subscription, and after receiving the food every week, they could choose to throw it straight in the trash. The company shouldn't offer someone a refund because they chose to throw away the food they sent. The same principle applies for digital subscriptions - the subscriber is choosing to throw away access to whatever service the business provides.
Second, I think it's worth pointing out that the principle underlying your argument, that it is the responsibility of the payee to ensure the payer gets what they pay for, logically contradicts salaried or waged work. The principle you've implied is consistent with all services being paid for piecemeal, since if nothing is produced, nothing was received. This implies cashiers should be paid per transaction, chefs should be paid per meal, baristas should be paid per cup, etc. Maybe you do think that - I can't possibly know. However, I doubt you would support a minimum-wage worker having to return a day's pay to their employer if no customers showed up that day. I think that's silly, because in the absence of active demand, the employee is still providing a service: their presence, and thus the ability to fulfill transactions if requested.
I also think what you're saying not only absolves consumers of their responsibility, but also strips from them any agency in the matter. This is not a problem requiring collective action, like climate change. This is a problem where the individual's actions are 100% capable of resolving it. In a world where lots of issues are out of the individual's control, why not empower people to control what they can? Cancelling unwanted subscriptions is a simple and effective way to avoid unwanted subscription fees, and is available to every subscription-holder. Arguing that businesses should resolve, to their own detriment, a problem that consumers create, and can easily resolve, doesn't make any sense to me.
And then we are talking about video services mostly here. In a perfect world, we'd have on demand streaming on a per piece of content basis that cost about what they can generate from showing ads on that content. A few cents for an episode of whatever.
Would you put up a sign reminding them to stop stop dropping $5 bills?
They really seem hell-bent of making me watch something, just in case I was considering cancelling my subscription.
For example you could pay $20/month for ChatGPT and use it as much or little as you like, or pay $/per API call... But not every company needs to offer both.
But an easy way to relieve that capacity problem is to stop fleecing people for something they forgot to cancel.
I have always viewed the push for "subscriptions" as a business model by so-called "tech" companies with suspicion. Looks like it was warranted.
Forgetting to cancel is part of the scheme. A friend of mine once worked briefly for a direct marketing company many, many years ago, pre-www. He said they knew a certain percentage would forget to cancel. They banked on it.
This is not something new.
I couldn't remember using PSN once last year so I cancelled it.
My assumption was that they would bank on guilt or forgetfulness to keep the cash flowing in.
The vhs rental stores were dying left and right. The one i looked into got most of its money from snacks and drinks. The subscription moddel was 75 cent, renting a movie would drop from 3-4 euro to 75 cent. (only 1 at a time) You could keep it for a week, then you would get a call if you could please return it.
The existing customers knew vhs rental was not really a thing anymore. Many visited just for a chat.
I figured one could guilt people into keeping the sub. I wasnt looking to make a profit, just curuous about the puzzle.
Im not even ashamed. haha
None. That was a slap in the face to football fans.
I hope Pat Ryan makes good on his threats.
> I’m demanding the NFL and NBC stop the BS and offer fans the service they already pay for, or we’re coming for your antitrust exemption,...The NFL raked in $12 billion in 2022; NBCUniversal made almost $40 billion. They now have a choice, either fix this problem, or we’ll fix it for them.”
If you want to make the world better you have to focus on the correct things. One of those is that deceptively advertised, difficult to cancel subscriptions should not be allowed. Another is that monopoly/oligopoly leads to price hikes and should also not be allowed. But people remaining in voluntary transactions which don't make sense to your personal sense of frugality? Honestly not the right bone to pick.
In the European Union, you can cancel any subscription by email.
But I agree there's a matter of degree: If people get renewal warnings and can easily cancel ('Reply with the word 'Cancel''), that's different.
> which don't make sense to your personal sense of frugality?
Why attribute stuff to people who disagree with you, in order to dismiss them? Why is it important to dismiss them? Maybe just believe they have some reasons and try to learn what they are.
The reasoning? "We don't want them to realize they're paying us for a service they don't use and cancel."
I guess I see the point, but feels unethical.
Otherwise it's a very well know effect. There will be unsubscription peaks every time the service communicates with thei customers, even purely informative stuff like "we now have a dark mode" emails will remind people they've a subscription and some will cancel, that's part of the business and something that affects communication frequency in subtle and obvious ways.
They are delivering a service.
> This particular behavior is little better than taking money and simply refusing to provide service
No it's not.
> No matter how awful or shameful, people say 'it's business' and those magic words absolve every evil
No, they don't.
It is lazy, doesn't provide any additional explanation for their reasoning. It is useless and basically just says "no".
Contempt and shame - super-popular rhetoric these days - achieve the same thing, and they are related (both kinds of rhetoric are an aggressive display of arrogance). They assert, implicitly, that there's no way to debate this person.
Anger is another similar tactic.
Then if you don't understand that it's tactical, you give up. So far, to my amazement, very few people seem to understand it; almost all take it at face value.
> evil
A bit of a strawperson
A business has to plan for the future. That means investments in capital and labor. These users have the right of their contract to resume using the service at a moment's notice, which the business is honoring by keeping the server capacity available, generating content, having support staff at the ready, etc.
They would regularly sign up more people than the gym could hold, but most people might go to the gym once a month or once every 3 months.
It's trivially easy to see that someone doesn't log in. Then you just pause their subscription after refunding that month. Next time they log in, you can prompt them to resubscribe with one click.
And it's more efficient for a company managing subscriptions to automate accurate pricing the right way than it is for each and every customer to sift through their payment history for anomalies
Except the neighbour did buy something. You being available to shovel their driveway. You having the equipment to shovel their driveway.
Which is why you pay for snow removal services even in months without snow.
I am as frustrated about everything turning into a subscription as the next person, but the solution is not to put the onus of cancellation on businesses. It is to prevent monopolies (so that there is a true free market) and dark patterns (i.e, cancellation should be easy and terms should be very clear when subscribing).
This is key. I've had software contacts where I was on retainer to provide service if needed. I wasn't needed, and got paid just for making myself available.
The shovel person's availability is reduced, they can't take another job that conflicts with this contract. They needed to buy a shovel, stock salt, maintain their car, etc. This seems like a pretty normal service retainer.
The incredible part was that they tracked whether you got a massage that month. If not, you'd get a 1/3rd credit for a free massage. And after 3 months of no use they would stop billing the monthly fee until you return (and collect your free massage). It was, to me, unbelievably consumer-friendly and reflected well on the business. I recommended everyone I could, and they deserved it.
Unfortunately the place shut down shortly after I moved away.
Let’s chuck this one on the bin of “who knows? Who cares?” Mistery Bin.
Clearly you were their most important customer, eh?
In it, a very very old woman who never used her card anymore, hadn't had a balance in some time, barely remembered she had it, was not interested in the balance transfer. My requirement in addition to the balance transfer was to also offer the product that came up for the account. The product was an account protection that basically froze your payments if you were unable to make them.
She asked if I thought that was something she really needed, I said no, you don't run a balance so it'd likely not be worthwhile if she planned to continue not using it. The sups issue with the call was that I said she didn't need the product. He wanted me to swindle that lady.
I didn't walk out or anything I just said this is my 2 weeks this isn't for me. Anyway, at some point people make these things okay, we can stop it.
I have been in rooms at SaaS companies where the fact that people forget to cancel the subscription was described as an important benefit of the subscription model, and a reason to set the price at something easily overlooked.
People are terrible at estimating or keeping track of their subscriptions, myself included. A couple years ago I painstakingly audited all my recurring subscriptions. Painstaking because I had to go through all my bank and credit account statements for a year looking for the services that billed yearly or semi-yearly rather than monthly. I had also drastically underestimated what they cost me, by about a factor of two in my case. I think of myself as being very frugal about this kind of thing, so it was a surprise.
But then I was able to save myself almost $1000 a year just by eliminating some unused subscriptions I had sort of forgotten. Not forgotten entirely, but services I sort of failed to think about as costs, because the monthly spend for them individually was so low. But once I thought about them as a yearly cost, and then about the total yearly cost for all these little services, that successfully (and more accurately) reframed the situation.
I didn't find unsubscribing or cancelling to be particular onerous. I do use Privacy.com now, which would make it both easier to track and theoretically easier to cancel. Ironically, Privacy.com is a monthly subscription (at the tier I use) but it is definitely worth it.
I told people about the $1000 a year "raise" I got by just trimming dead weight. I told them they should do the same exercise—make a spreadsheet, have a column that multiplies the monthly fee by 12, and think about it as a yearly cost instead—and they were all, uniformly, without exception certain that they already knew what they spent, and it wasn't really very much.
My advice: do the exercise anyway, it is worth it.
Buffets have monthly subcriptions?
I'm imagining going to a place where I sit and choose food without ever making price calculations, the restaurant also doesn't have to care about pushing drink orders or time spent at the table.
if the cost was low enough people would probably stop caring about optimizing and try to get their money's worth, while the restaurant would only need to focus on customer satisfaction to get renewals.
That must exist in some way, what is it ?
Edit: school restauration is that, and I genuinely think of it as a crucial system that helps so many kids. I could see company restaurants in the same light but the closed nature isn't great.
I'm struggling to understand how you can lambaste people by saying "jUsT cAnCeL iT"[0] when you seem to be well aware of the business model of gyms, wherein cancelling a membership is widely-known to be a purposefully cumbersome and difficult experience.
The fundamental business model in this discussion is different, yes, but if you understand that business model then you're likely also well aware of the other side of their business around membership cancellations.
There isn't. I haven't said that there is.
>You can lambaste people for not even trying to cancel a subscription they don't want while recognizing that many subscriptions depend on light users.
Yup. Never said one couldn't do that, either.
>Light users are not people who want to cancel their subscription but can't because of shenanigans, they're just light users. It's not "the other side of their business", you can have a heavy/light user model while not playing these shenanigans with customers.
Sure. Still not really what I'm getting at, though.
I simply pointed to their comment here as evidence that they understand how gym memberships work, thereby being aware of how convoluted many of them can be when it comes to canceling them, which stands counter to their comment elsewhere in the thread. It's that simple, and I don't know how to make myself any clearer at this point.
Feel like I'm just repeating myself now - not sure if it's a poor explanation on my part or others just aren't grokking it for reasons on their end, but I'll reevaluate and see how I can be clearer in the future.
The worst one, which was very unique, was when the gym had just change hands and I was looking to cancel on the guys first day and he didn’t want to lose anyone. We (me, him, and some other trainer who was his mentor) talked for probably 3 hours. From our talk, I was also a bit of a unique situation, and I don’t think they would have talked to other people for as long. I was also being nice, I could have just drew and hard line and walked out. He ended up giving me 3 months free and a few free training sessions… then I went back when that was running out and cancelled when he wasn’t there in about 3 minutes.
The second worse was maybe a 10 minute conversation (Lifetime). The others weren’t enough to remember. Some I cancelled by sending an email.
Even if you aren’t moving, just tell them you’re moving and there are no affiliated gyms nearby. It’s not like they are going to check. They can’t really argue with that.
Their cheapest plan is something like $12.99 and with fees it's up to $18 or so. And that was 5 years ago.
Aside, is Planet Fitness still unfriendly to people that push themselves during workouts? I'm no bodybuilder and never will be (my little-girl wrists made that decision) but the idea of a "lunk alarm" was rather off-putting.
In my budget I allocate $100 for subscriptions and just look to stay under that. I found giving myself allowance to spend X amount made me chill out a little, so I wasn’t always trying to cut at all costs, since they are hard to avoid now. That budget item avoids the death by 1,000 cuts, while also letting me not sweat the small stuff.
This isn't true: I've had subscriptions roll over to the new credit card number - and not just for a month or two. Apparently the bank will continue to process them (I'd rather they didn't.)
We always made cancels easy in our system, and if someone issued a chargeback we would ban their email from signing up again.
Even incurred some chargeback fees in the process because I forgot to update a few vendors.
After combing through my credit card bills to identify all the recurring charges my conclusion was less that I have too many subscriptions but that cost creep is out of control on them.
Ex: I stopped paying attention to my storage unit monthly bill because it was on autopay. Turns out now after 4 years I'm paying more than double the published rate. Called the storage facility and they said the only way around it is to rent a new unit at the new rate and move my things there to start the process all over again.
I have this memory of having to do that to get rid of the wsj after I made the fatal mistake of forgetting to cancel after a trial.
If you work at a bank, maybe pitch a notifications system that detects reoccurring transactions that are in fixed amounts that notifies customers when they change. In fact, also pitch giving your customers a fucking list of reoccurring transactions.
Seriously, how is so much software so bad and so many products lack very basic functionality that would not be very difficult to implement but have high utility? I mean my laundry app doesn't even sort the laundry rooms in alphabetical order, they're just in a random fucking list. It's impressive to me we have systems that are so low value you can hire software engineers that don't know about sort. I don't think AI is going to replace a lot of coding jobs, but I suspect it'll replace these jobs (I just fear it'll also make this type of software more common).
I get exactly these types of notifications from both Discover and Citi.
Rinse and repeat every now and then.
I have always heard that it’s cheaper to keep an existing client than to acquire a new one. Apparently these places don’t realize that. They don’t need to pay for advertising when they are filly booked up with people paying the market rate, nor do they need to do all the extra work invoiced in signing someone up or moving them out. I don’t own or operate a business, so maybe I’m talking out of my butt, but these people strike me as bad business owners who are chasing the wrong metrics.
It isn't nefarious, and you do your part by being willing to move instead of pay the higher price. It's all just the way the capitalist market works.
Want to watch a movie? Borrow the DVD from your local library. Want to watch it repeatedly? Buy it off Amazon. Want to read a book? Library. Amazon. AbeBooks. Want to get fit? Go for a hike. Do pushups. Buy a barbell and free weights.
Here's my personal finance plan: Check your bank account daily. Cancel services you don't need. Don't do 30-day trials. Don't sign up for overdraft "protection" at $40 a pop. Use cash if you can't handle plastic, and don't use credit cards. Just don't borrow money, period, if you're not using it to buy a house. Don't let anyone take money out of your checking account but you. If a company screws you, never do business with them again. Pay up front for a year of service and mark when it renews. Write checks before you give out your card numbers.
I know, Stone Age, right? But I like to keep my life simple.
Meaning, no one has to do all the stuff required to bring a new government agency into being (including raising taxes or borrowing money), there are no new regulations to comply with (which would cost the streaming services more, which would cost you more), you don't have an new, unnecessary agency brought into being which will literally never go away and increase the size of permanent government we all have to pay for and live with, you haven't expanded the scope of government intrusion in our lives, etc.
What drives me nuts are the subscriptions that we actually use but keep creeping up in price. SiriusXM is the worst, I think that one is up nearly 25% in the past couple years. One of those frog-in-boiling-water situations were you don't notice the ~$1/month increase but suddenly the thing is well above your mental marker of what it costs.
EDIT: The specific app is https://copilot.money/ I use the MacOS and iOS apps though I prefer the Mac app.
You do need to adopt their zero-based envelope budgeting paradigm though. It’s very opinionated.
That's a long way of saying that $100/year might not be such a bad deal to get some genuine visibility about my own spending. Especially since the companies currently providing me the information about my spending are, essentially, my enemies.
If you actually cancel, they will mail and call you intensely to try to get you to sign back up, until you call again to give them an ultimatum to stop.
TBH, I still have a Spotify subscription for listening on demand.
To counter the dark patterns, I now use privacy.com. It's far easier to just cancel a virtual credit card.
I have virtual cards through capital one but they seem much less feature rich.
Companies put a lot of effort into making signup frictionless, I don't buy an excuses that say cancelling is intrinsically harder than signup and can't be streamlined.
Personally on my projects I never auto-renew anything. If you find value you'll take the time to come back and pay again. I wish by default subscription services like Netflix would not charge you for months you don't use the service (I.e. if you never logged in once)
I know this probably won't happen because forgetting to cancel is good for the bottom line but if your company is truly customer obsessed, I don't know why you would charge your customers for a service they're not using at all.
Edit: Also, omitting the "cancel subscription" button from your website if it's that simple and instead redirecting users to call a number that's hard to find in your Help section is another "dark pattern" of subscriptions.
I also have to keep switching the shipping method on an order page, from the paid option, to the free (non-Prime) option. And there's a long spinner (sometimes ~15 seconds) to punish me when I click the radio button. (In the past, they've also hidden a default trial of Prime in the shipping option radio buttons, so that's another reason to check that.)
(If only Walmart.com, Target.com, Walgreens.com, etc. would close the gap to even current Amazon, we'd have better options and less trashiness. Anecdotally seems like Amazon -- either from the top, or from individuals juicing their metrics -- are taking advantage of Amazon's enviable competence and position, and cashing out excess goodwill.)
I just got myself a month of Prime because of this. And cancelling requires you to go through around 5 screens with buttons "Do you want to cancel?", "Yes, I want to keep Prime" and so on. And the colors of the cancel button are always different. So you have to closely read and understand each button or your cancel attempt will get cancelled.
I hate when their cancelling scheme puts blocks in front of the user so it’s harder and harder to quit. In my country I’ve noticed some have their Cancel Subscription page unavailable, or it says it has cancelled it but you don’t get email or confirmation of anything, and then surprise, another month payment, and then you have to call, and they leave you waiting for hours.
I despise this and I denounce them with local regulation authorities, then they get moving, and even then they may still squeeze another month out of you, attribute it to error and just expect you don’t denounce them again because that would be even more time from you.
But this is me... I know lots of people who spend at least 6 months before they have the time/energy to actually go through this process so they can cancel.
I’d say to hell with them, it gives bad rap to good businesses which let you cancel/pause without too much hassle.
Ignore them. Just give a virtual credit card to any subscription service, and set a credit limit on it. Problem solved. If they try to keep charging your card: too bad, the charges are declined.
It’s not unique to Apple though. I think it’s this standard from EMVCo
https://www.emvco.com/emv-technologies/payment-tokenisation/
> EMV Payment Tokenisation enhances transaction security by removing the most valuable data to a fraudster within a transaction, the primary account number (PAN), and replacing it with a unique alternative value, a payment token.
> This reduces the value of payments information stolen in the event of a data compromise, as a payment token should not be able to be used beyond the environment in which it was intended. Payment tokens support both face-to-face (F2F) and remote payment transactions.
Basically, if Amazon leaks my credit card data, thieves can’t use it because the number is associated with my Amazon account only. That one token can be cancelled and the next time I buy something a new one is issued and I don’t have to replace my credit card just because one merchant leaked my info.
If you're receiving a service at cost but agreeing to pay for it later, then yes they could send you to collections if you refuse to pay it, but that model is only really used for a select few services (some phone plans come to mind). The vast majority of online services are prepay.
So I went there and cancelled my account, and they even sent me a "sorry to see you go" message. They definitely got it.
Then they went and charged my card anyway. But it was declined, because I'd closed the privacy.com virtual card I'd given them.
That's why you do this.
Glad the FTC is going after this nonsense [1].
[1] https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/news/press-releases/2023/03/...
With this I can see that I'm spending roughly $112/month on subscriptions. The whole thing couldn't be much easier.
The service costs $4/month. The irony of that is not lost on me, but the convenience of seeing my recurring monthly charges is worth it for me.
Edit: It looks like my bank has some basic view accessible through a submenu.
https://www.bankofamerica.com/online-banking/mobile-and-onli...
I do not know if BoA offers a breakdown by merchant though.
Sure, there are proxies like Privacy.com and PayPal that let you do this, but this should be a standard feature everywhere.
There should be a standard interface to pull transaction data without having to rely on a third party as it rapes your privacy.
Notably, this apparently exists in EU.
Shortcuts being the simplest way to add a row on to the budget sheet (i.e transaction) from iPhone homescreen or macOS Spotlight.
I wrote a small tutorial here: https://rahulkrrrishna.xyz/notes/2023/11/18/simple-budgeting...
I’m a happy subscriber though and to me its yearly cost is easily made up by how much money I save using it.
We have allowed businesses to exist whose only really business model is duping customers into a subscription and then making it difficult or impossible to cancel. Just go look at timeshares [1].
I would dearly love to give money to some quality news publications to support their work but I don't. Why? Because I absolutely don't ever want to deal with their subscriptions department should I ever want to cancel.
Ever tried to cancel an Equinox gym membership? I've seen half a dozen sign up constulants standing around at the entrance, someone call up to cancel and being told there's no specialist available.
Cancelling a service should be no more difficult than pressing a button on an app or a website. We passed the CAN-SPAM Act to force compliance in communications for businesses [2]. The same should apply to taking their money.
Speaking of gyms, it's an anti-user business model. The perfect gym customer is one who pays for a membership and never uses it. The more members a given gym can "support", the more profitable it is. If everyone used it 2 hours a day they'd go out of business. Planet Fitness took this one step further and removed their most popular equipment to dissuade people from going and charging so little that people usually can't be bothered to cancel it.
All US cable/Internet start with an introductory rate that quietly gets jacked up over time. You can go through a "cancel dance" to renew that rate every year or so but it's absolutely exhausting to have to deal with this.
VPNs do the same thing. $2.99/month introductory price! Wow! Bargain! It just quietly gets jacked up later on.
This is what government is for.
[1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bd2bbHoVQSM
[2]: https://www.ftc.gov/business-guidance/resources/can-spam-act...
My gym managed to find itself in a great little niche by being the complete opposite: they'll call you if you haven't been in for two weeks, then bug you to either start coming in again or pause your membership. The result is a dedicated membership base of regulars who seriously want to be there, which sustains itself on word-of-mouth referrals.
Of course, this is a small-time operation and not a national chain like Planet Fitness.
I also set the credit cards to send me an email for any transaction over $1.
Once I looked at my bank account and noticed that i'd been paying for ancestry for the past 6 months... WTF! So I logged into my account, canceled it and requested a refund stating that I didn't even know I had it and didn't login once. They told me they don't offer refunds despite me never logging in. You basically sign up to a free trial by placing down a credit card to get access and forget about it. Total scam and I can't wait for it to be illegal.
99.9% of services keep your account alive until your trial/paid for period runs out. The other 0.1% I never sign up to.
Starbucks has over $1.5B (something like 17% of its free cash, don't quote me though) in the form of spare change lingering on Starbucks Cards. It fundamentally affects their financials, but is also perceived as just spare change slipping into the couch.
This is a similar to how airlines are more like banks than airlines these days. They issue credit cards and collect transaction fees, but instead of giving cardholders cash back they give them miles…gift cards for future travel, essentially. If something bad happens financially it’s a great buffer for them. They can always manipulate the value of miles within some level of reason until customers get mad (see: Delta). It’s also great to be a bank when you’re in a capital-intense business.
This concept is also how how fast-growing businesses can have cash flow problems.
Let’s say I pay my vendors right away, but when I sell my widgets I get paid 30 days later.
If I sell 10 widgets the first month, and suddenly sell 1000 widgets the second month, I might look like I’m an incredibly profitable company. But I probably ran out of cash to pay my vendors for the raw materials to build my widgets.
That's right, SiriusXM can't even give us their service, that's much they poisoned that water well.
I've heard enough horror stories about other classes of subscription-type things (gym memberships, newspaper subscriptions, etc.) that I don't even consider signing up for those - entire industries that I write off because of bad behavior when it comes to cancelling subscriptions.
I always wonder if companies think through the consequences of their aggressive "retention" efforts.
Probably not beyond the next quarterly results.
I assumed this was because they pay for some content on a per-view basis, so they don't want to pay if you're not actually there/awake.
That said, I have found the autoplay-next-episode behavior to be strangely inconsistent, even for the same show. Some nights it automatically plays 4 in a row if we do nothing, and other nights it stops after each one. I've tried to figure out if it's based on time (sometimes we watch pretty late), but there seems to be no correlation.
I didn't even _forget_, per se: been trying to cancel online for months. It says they'll call you, then they never do, and _then_ I forget until I see the next billing statement. Finally went into the store this morning, but without any proof of previous attempts on hand, all they could do was cancel as of today.
Frankly, they couldn't even give me a paper confirmation, and they say the email confirmation will come in a day or two, so this probably isn't even over yet.
I actually did get a screenshot of the most recent attempt, but everyone involved knows I'm probably not going to find it worth my time to fight it. They win.
I had errantly figured I could postpone my payments to the due date and not accrue interest, but that is not the case and I ended up with a few hundred dollars more in interest than I expected.
If you’re paying your full statement balance then you can wait all the way until the due date since you’ve never accrued any interest in the first place.
Now if a companies autocharge is extra sketchy, such as not informing you about auto pay, enabling it automatically, etc, just threaten a chargeback when contacting their support and most the time they'll immediately refund you.
I had a bunch of issues with Personal Capital connections continuously messing up and there's no way to classify and evaluate the purchases.
Of course, if devs are intending to make money from subscriptions, devs may rationalize how devs should be in control of the user's subscription instead of letting the user pick Apple because users trust Apple will balance power for users.
I had hoped to use "ignore it until charges stop going through because jumping through their hoops is ridiculous" to cancel a few pesky subscriptions and it didn't even work!
I think this is a "feature" of using Stripe for billing? Or something? I couldn't find anything obvious that they had in common but that.
When I canceled mine a couple of years ago I think it could only be done by phone, which already is a hurdle. To be fair to WSJ, it was smooth sailing from there and they did not bother me or try to trick me to renew it, in or after the phone call.
Time to finally get rid of them. Unfortunately they require for me to make an international call at my expense to close my account.
Naming to shame.
But I still don't think a company should cancel my subscription without my knowledge to protect me from myself. One click cancel? Hell yes. But auto expiration? That's a bridge too far.
When 90% of your user base is using super-easily-createable disposable credit cards from valid BINs that self-destruct after your free trial's over, the way free trials work will have to change.
Throws a wrench into the "was hoping you forgot about it, now ask/argue with customer support on the phone" dark pattern.
How can you forget about something when you are getting an SMS / Push notification the second they take your money?
Is this not true for the US?
I think there's credit cards that offer this as a feature now.
I would immediately sign up if this existed.
When a lot of people struggle with certain categories of problems, it's worth considering if those problems could be nerfed in some way rather than telling them just "get good".
There's definitely a huge slew of predatory billing techniques and dark patterns to get people to keep paying for services. These patterns should be documented and destroyed.
Having more accessible billing methods also makes life better for everyone (maybe except the company). Consider how absurd it is that only from California can you cancel your New York Times subscription online while every other state requires you to call in and deal with a retention agent. Let's not pretend this is in any way reasonable, it's straight up bullshit.
Sure personal responsibility is important, but there's no reason we should accept predatory and abusive practices from companies. It just makes reality worse for everyone.
I think it's something learned, and that is, something taught by the far right ideological movement and others trying to create cultural change. Empathy is outre, it's embarassing. Embracing contempt and cruelty makes people look smart, these days.
Empathy is fundamental to human rights, freedom (for others), equality, equity, justice, fairness. It leads to truth. By attacking that fundamental infrastructure (the empathy), you can undermine it all.
While bits based subs are not quite the same, still holds that if people who don't need that sub any more cancelled then others would probably pay more.
Though perhaps you could say businesses then actively reduce pricing to keep things just under the zombie radar, but that's even more effed up: it means the pricing strategy is such that zombie accounts are actually the business's goal, not just a side effect.
But they also use the "only $2 for the first 6 months" thing to get you hooked first and then wait for you to become complacent and forget about it.
This discussion is about subscriptions but the general idea applies to so much more – basic budgeting, retirement savings, not paying random fees, not paying interest, moving spare money to investment accounts every month, rebalancing your investments every quarter, negotiating rents, negotiating your salary.
Ultimately it is your money and your problem. No one is looking out for you. You can either endlessly complain about it or build some good habits. 30 minutes of effort once a month to go over bills and budgets is hardly the end of the world.
You spend a third of your life working for that money, surely you spend 5 minutes at most tracking how you spend it.
I think part of it is that it is just so hard to centralize all finances through just one bank. The best bank for retirement doesn't support business credit cards; the best credit cards are with completely different companies, etc. Monthly finances are a huge hassle as it is.
I always advice against single points of failure (whether software, security, or finance). Do the opposite, pick the best for each and intentionally avoid overlap.
I have credit cards from every major bank but I don't have anything else at those banks. My accounts with money in them are in other institutions where I don't have cards or anything else. My mortgage is with a bank where I have nothing else with them, and so on.
Decentralize, avoid too many eggs in any one basket.
I don't know what's the point of using a 3rd party app for this, unless you feel very generous about providing your data for someone to sell.
I also don't know what's the point of reviewing transactions individually. If I pay something monthly (e.g. internet/car insurance/utility bills), I'm not going to look at it every month. I might check it at the end of the year to see if there are any 10x anomalies, but that's it.
I'm also not going to check transactions under $20, unless there are hundreds of them that are unexpected.
Although I do feel sorry for buyers who spend $1000+ every month on impulse shopping, but those are also the kind of people to never check their financial health anyway.
Being exposed to the crushing reality of my poverty, alongside the daily ritual of sending off job applications and reading rejection emails from last week's applications, took a heavy toll on my mental health. If I was running things that close to the bone again, I'm certain I could take that habit up again, but one of the ways I know I've come up is that my survival does not require me to categorize every transaction in real time and confirm adherence to the budget down to the penny.
And frankly, I don't see why the government shouldn't mandate making it easy to unsubscribe.
Am I sad for companies who take in these people as customers? No, but let's not canonize people who are reckless with their spending, even when warned.
That's not what this is about though. In those situations, the person is consciously choosing a bad option. However this is materially different, because with auto-pay people are being charged without their knowledge. The first situation involves making a bad choice, but this is being unaware of a bad thing, which companies are exploiting.
You know I have heard this my entire life, and I have yet to actually meet any of these people. The people I have met though fall into one or more of a number of categories:
- People uneducated in finance, usually lower class: You can say things like "well of course credit cards charge interest" but I was never taught that in school. I learned it from my mother, who is an accountant. She also taught me how to do things like a proper budget, balance a checkbook, diligent record-keeping on expenditures, and how to file my taxes. I was never offered this knowledge in schooling. The gap between how many, I believe well intention-ed and well educated people have between what is "common sense" financial knowledge and what is known by common people, can be the grand fucking canyon.
- Despite the above, I have also never in my life met a person who believed a credit card was free money. Everyone knew they had to pay it back, even if they didn't understand interest and why interest was about to ruin their credit score.
- Additionally, I have never met a person who signed up for things they couldn't afford for the hell of it. I met a few people who were sold mortgages they couldn't afford, by representatives of financial institutions. I've also met people who borrowed money from Payday loan stores because their cars were broken and they could not earn money until that was solved, and they lacked the money to accomplish that.
- I've also met people who, before they were legally allowed to DRINK, were allowed to sign on the dotted line for six figures of educational funding, with no demonstration of understanding how the critical above concepts worked, so they could know what they would eventually pay, nor any demonstration of how they would earn enough of a living afterwards to pay it off, which is just odd to me? Like, a bank won't loan you $500k to buy a house that's only worth $100k, so why will they loan you $150k to get a degree in underwater basket weaving?
- Lastly, I've also met people who struggle with things like depression, addiction, attention issues, all manner of ailments that either stem from or are made worse by a lack of dopamine in their brains, which makes them impulsive and possibly reckless depending on the day, and I have seen them interacting with products that are clearly, blatantly, preying on their inability to say no effectively so that they will say yes. And once they say yes enough times, their credit cards are maxed out, and they're in the poorhouse for no other reason than being vulnerable to manipulation.
And like, all of that aside, even if you meet NONE of those categories, I still, frankly, believe it's not only possible but the only ethical response to all of this is: we should have a society that leaves enough room for people to fuck up occasionally without ruining their goddamn lives. I don't know exactly how we go about that, in finance especially this is a tricky thing, but at the same time, I simply don't believe that a lifetime of wage-slave-serfdom, or perhaps worse, freezing to death on the street, is an acceptable punishment for you making a bad financial decision at some point in your life. That does not make sense to me.
At this point, I don't understand what the fuck you people are talking about. This is an article about people paying for subscriptions they don't use, not people ruining their goddamn lives. The hyperbole is extensive, is this article posted to some Socialist Discord so everyone can raid the comments? Why is this level of bad faith discussion occurring?
I can understand suggesting that services like this, especially when using tech like Apple Pay, have made it too easy to 'check out' through a trial process, but the language is still over-the-top since the user is still clearly considering the product as potentially useful to go through the effort of signing up for a trial or an actual sub. (And on the flipside, Apple Pay, e.g., makes it easy to see all subs in one place and cancel them in one place, so it has that going for it.)
And of course, what illegal practices are you talking about? I'm going to guess most people here aren't blaming the victim if a practice is actually illegal. But I see you're being hyperbolic so maybe I shouldn't bother.
The regulatory environment has not caught up (although the article explains how it's starting to). It turns out that recurring pull payments tend not to be cancelled, resulting in a system where massive overpayments for actual services consumed are the norm. This is not economic efficiency leading to useful consumer innovation, it's rewarding the players who lodge the darkest dark patterns. Occasionally that includes, as described elsethread, the illegal practice of "just straight-up not honoring the 300 page contracts that they had written" — although unethical practices such as making it deceptively difficult to cancel are presumably more common than outright lawbreaking.
There's a correlation between financial illiteracy and acquiring cripling debt.
> They make you call between 9 am and 5 pm, and hold for hours to cancel, sometimes even disconnect forcing you to start over, while not offering a callback option. Sometimes there are weeks I absolutely cannot afford to do this because of work.
> You buy something, and they tag a "3-4 months free" of another service, which you can't opt out of even if you want to, and then suddenly charge you that extra money on the 5th month. You obviously cancel it, but you still overpaid for a month.
> Services that charge you once a year. You forgot to cancel the Xbox subscription because you bought a PS5, got charged a year later. Now you cancel it, but you paid for the year.
> Services that make you use or forgo credits that you already paid for if you cancel. (Audible) You want to cancel, but you put it off for another month because now, you need to figure out 5 ebooks to buy. Next month, you end up in the same situation and now you need to figure out 6 ebooks to buy.
The point being, you could check all your statements weekly, and still end up spending money on something you forgot about.
This is customer service. A written notice of termination works for any consumer contract.
> but you paid for the year
Unpay for it. This is the utility of credit cards.
That's a facile answer. You're extremely well educated on this matter and know full well the downsides of "unpaying".
EDIT: see sibling comment from "notaustinpowers" for an explanation of the downsides (thanks!). https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39060260
The chargeback doesn't supersede the vendor's control of access to the service or potential legal/debt obligations.
When terminating my account is exactly what I want, that's totally fine.
This does highlight yet another problem with consolidating to huge companies. You'll never be able to charge back to a behemot like amazon or google, they'll just erase you off large parts of the internet which would be problematic.
But with smaller vendors that you are trying to get rid of and never want anything to do with them again, it works wonderfully.
Sign up and immediately cancel/turn off billing, so you aren't charged again next year (again, they'll send you a bunch of notices ahead of the end of your service).
Put a calendar reminder in for 11.5 months out from when you sign up.
In Slack, /remind me in 11.5 months to cancel X service.
But reading suggestions like yours, apparently it's all on people like my poor mom to outwit corporations with multi-million-dollar budgets dedicated to screwing her over. (And yes I'm helping, but precious few tech-noob elders have an engineer in the family.)
Why? That's much worse. If anything is going to do a recurring charge to me, I want it to go through a credit card which offers a layer of indirection.
I never authorize automatic billing directly to a bank account, then the money is truly gone. With a credit card I can always protest the charge and have had to do this with particularly difficult businesses a few times.
Congratulations, HNer — you're more tech savvy than my mom.
Perhaps you're volunteering to help vulnerable seniors like her navigate the Hobbesian nightmare of subscriptions?
I applaud your initiative, but if you're new to this, let me caution you: they don't always understand or follow the advice you give them precisely. Even if they are trying their best.
Use a virtual card from your credit card Many banks offer these now a these days (Capital one does, with all cards, in app or in browser, no need for extension).
These get sold to a collections company. Invalid payment doesn’t invalidate the contract.
Not entirely. Most places don't accept cancellations over email, or require certified mail for cancellations, which just means now you have to go to the post office between 9-5.
> Unpay for it. This is the utility of credit cards.
Most places have segments in their contract that state if you do a chargeback or block a payment, they will terminate your account, and payment providers can block that card from being used on their service in the future.
Make sure you give them negative feedback with the BBB if canceling is too hard.
Though the business model of most gyms (except the expensive ones) is to get you to enroll and then not come, so they won't care.
E-mail yes. But I've never seen a letter mailed fail. Especially if you Cc your state's consumer protection regulator.
> if you do a chargeback or block a payment, they will terminate your account
Wait, what are we trying to do?
Next time you're in a well trafficked area, ask 20 people if they know they can do this.
None of this is a problem for me, but I fully understand why dishonest businessfolk love to exploit the hell out of these "tiny conditions" and then turn around and pretend they don't understand why they are a big deal.
Yes, the correct solution is certainly to pass laws that force companies to enable easy and quick unsubscribe process.
Just commenting on that between the two bad choices of hours and hours on hold, or 10 minutes in the post office, I'll take the latter.
It is worth it to them to let you cancel a subscription rather than have to deal with chargebacks, lawsuits, bad publicity, etc.
but, I'd like to know, which companies have onerous cancellation policies?
gyms
Spectrum (previously Time Warner Cable) - To cancel you need your account number (both the TW and the Spectrum ones for folks who were converted) and your PIN for each - which you likely setup only once and may well not have realized you needed since it's only for starting service and cancelling. Don't have them? You can't cancel. Let me emphasize that again, if you don't give them the right number they will continue to charge you until your credit card expires, and then send you to collections. I am fastidious about account info and had mine, but some of my neighbors were less so.
Were you looking for a full list (I have more) or just wanted a couple of examples?
The only system where they just charge you I like is the usage model. I get a bill from AWS, OpenAI, and Backblaze every month for a few dollars but if I stop using them the bill drops to $0.
I think it's one of the major failures of the education system. Why is there no class in school which covers taxes, savings, budgeting, etc? People are seemingly just expected to know this on their own.
Obviously personal finance is also ancient on some level, but I wonder how long it's actually been so complicated and critical as to warrant consideration for being taught in school. I'm no expert, but I think the complexities like payment cards, insanely complex tax code, etc. are quite modern. On the other hand, the same could be said for driver's ed which is pretty common.
I don't know when that change happened, but it's to the detriment of everyone.
Bold of you to assume that these people have investments at all.
This is true, but it doesn't mean that collective solutions cannot exist or should not be desired.
I've seen it first-hand how those with the biggest financial problems earn as much money as anybody else, but they simply can't handle it. And the rest of us are supposed to bail them out of course.
Besides, regulation of this kind (cancelling subscription) benefits everyone but certain companies. I don't want to waste my time due to someone's misguided free market ideology. Even if navigating endless bureaucracy does make me feel smart.
That said, I hate the tendency of regulators to outright ban certain activities. Everyone should be free to throw their money away (by e.g. making risky investments), after signing a lot of very scary forms and showing that they really mean it.
Netflix doesn't get as much money, but since they didn't provide any service, I fail to see why that's a problem.
The only reasonable price for 0 work is 0€. For anything more it gets complicated.
Not to mention they still are producing content whether you watch it or not, and by subscribing you are paying for that content to be created.
It's more extreme in other scenarios, like say hospital emergency rooms. But it still applies to services like Netflix imho.
That said, I wholeheartedly believe that there should be a legal requirement for any subscription to be as easy to cancel as it is to sign up. Gym memberships are notoriously for being criminally difficult to cancel. It's beyond ludicrous that I can sign up for a gym online or at my local gym, but can't cancel the same way. Nope, I have to pick up a form (which only the manager can give you, which means I have to go there when he's there, and he'll be conveniently unavailable), fill it out, mail it, and hope they don't conveniently "lose" it. And even if they don't lose it, they'll just sit on it for 2-3 months before the payments stop.
That sounds sensible, but fails to acknowledge the power differential between a single person and a billion+ dollar corporation.
The latter has armies of people whose sole job is to intentionally make it almost completely impossible to unsubscribe.
Resolving this power imbalance is one of the useful properties of government. Pass laws that say it must be very easy to unsubscribe (some states have).
You're not wrong, necessarily, but the world isn't as black and white as you would like it to be. There is nuance to things, and not every subscription is as easy to cancel as you seem to think it should be.
I cancelled my NYT subscription about a year before California required them to make it a one-click process. I had to sit on the phone with them for 90 minutes in order to make it happen. Various holds, multiple reps pushing different "packages" for me rather than just outright cancelling. I literally had to argue with them in order to make it happen.
I had the time then. I didn't mind, though I sure was annoyed as hell. These days, with the job I have, and my outside-of-work life situation being what it is, 90 minutes isn't exactly an easy chunk of time for me to block out just so I can cancel a $25/month subscription. I could end up finding time for it, sure, and that - to your point - is absolutely on me. But it's not as easy to do that now as it was when I'd signed up for it years back. And you know, deep down, just as well as I do, that shit isn't ever as black and white as your attitude would like it to be. You can call it an "excuse" all you want, but that's a disingenuous take.
And, thankfully, the app was never released. It was basically just an app for pay-day loans.
The lack of knowledge is quite startling (but understandable, given how complex some of these things often are and how much time it takes to figure them out that people just don't have) and the pace at which it is exploited is very disappointing but inevitable.
Maybe next time don't work for them? It's not too late to give money to charity though.
The most vulnerable are used a fodder for a vast capitalist system.
Very few people need more than one washing machine. Well off people already own washing machines. So if you're selling washing machines, you need to make a way for as many poor people as possible to be able to buy them, hence credit and split payments.
That the system is just fine thank you Sir, move along?
There's no inevitability to these systems. People make choices to run companies these ways.
They don't have to sell because the factories can't stop making products.
> They don't have to sell because the factories can't stop making products.
What are they supposed to do? Shut down the factories and fire their workers? Industrialised production relies on huge up-front investments and large operating cost, in exchange for enormous output and low per-unit cost of production. That's how it works in capitalism. That's how it works in communism. If industry can't operate on that model and need to get their income from fewer customers, then consumer goods would be much more expensive as a result. Also much better in quality, but inaccessible for the majority of people.
A huge number of these services won't actually even supply physical goods.
Your argument isn't relevant here.
I don't think this is true.
Think about the system you're describing. It makes a lot more sense until you introduce the concept of greed.
These companies aren't going to a mass market instead of selling to smaller rich audiences. They're selling to the mass market as well.
There's no target profit amount.
"As much as possible".
Unfortunately bad actors have realized that what we actually are is just meat computers with unpatchable security vulnerabilities, so demanding that people just stop having problems and fit your nebulous definition of competence with unlimited and unwavering performance, has predictably not panned out.
What is the more moral solution then? Recognizing and placing systematic limits on exploitation behaviors, or is it continuing to demand super-vigilance from the victims?
“You can try having self-control, but there are a thousand engineers on the other side of the screen working against you.” ― Tristan Harris
(Found on https://www.staygrounded.online/p/how-i-got-my-phone-screen-..., itself linked from a discussion of use of grayscale mode, which I also recommend for people like me that easily get sucked into a whirlpool of novel information seeking. History has relentlessly proven to me that the less "self control" I need to have, the more self control I actually have.)
1) An “ethical” system in which a bunch of people are losing money and are surprised by this, unaware of it, or intend to stop it, haven’t yet, but absolutely would if it were as easy as thinking “stop that”. But they said yes somewhere along the line, so it’s all “ethical”.
2) A just-as-ethical system that… simply doesn’t do that bad stuff in 1, or at least does way less of it.
It’s weird to me that people defend situations akin to 1 when 2 is totally achievable, on the grounds that “well 1 isn’t technically unethical (as I define it)”. Ok? So what? 2 is better and isn’t less ethical. What is going through someone’s head when they defend 1 and dismiss or put down the notion of 2? If you could flip a switch to toggle between the two, would you really leave it on 1? I do not get it. Why not pick the version with better outcomes?
[edit] and, separately, I think it’s plainly unethical—to put it mildly—to add terms to a contract or steps to a process that you know with great certainty your counterparty will later regret or dislike, relying on their overlooking it or not having better options, purely for your own benefit at their expense. I don’t think their saying “yes” makes that ethically an ok thing to do—it’s straight-up predatory. But even if it does make it Ok, why prefer that over… not-that?
This is literally what law enforcement and consumer protection is for. Otherwise we could make the same argument about pickpocketing victims, which is frankly what this is more akin to.
To be fair, there should probably be a national consumer protection law that ties complexity of cancellation to complexity of sign up.
They kept changing the app and I could never find the way to cancel (turns out it doesn’t exist). I would just eat the most monthly because I never wanted to spend the time to figure it out. One day I sat down to check their website. No way to cancel.
So I went to the support page. It has a deep-link to the cancellation page. The link is broken. Reddit and others couldn’t find a valid link. Everyone said to DM them on social media.
So I tried to contact support, but they don’t publish a valid email or phone number staffed conveniently in my time zone.
So I blindly emailed “support@“ and asked to cancel. The response was another broken deep link. I replied no I wanted support staff to do it. They refused. So I told them I was a California resident and we have a law on the books requiring that online signups can be cancelled online and support staff is legally required to honor a cancellation request. No reply.
I got an email a few days later cancelling my account for violating their arbitration clause in their TOS.
This is basically pickpocketing.
If someone was hired to manage your life, and they did what you did, they would be fired with contempt.
However, it's not entirely the people's fault. Credit card providers make it really easy to sign up for their cards but make it really difficult to do things like "add an alert that texts me whenever a purchase above $0.01 is made" or "alert me when my 0% APR promotional period is ending" or "tell me when i'm about to pay a late fee".
All of them will make you go through a labyrinthian exercise to turn these alerts on, if they make them available (LOOKING AT YOU, CITIBANK) and many will not alert you on anything less than $50, which is crazy given how many transactions are smaller than that!
Also, in a world where everything is getting more expenses and incomes aren't keeping up, using a tool that reminds you how broke you are on a daily basis isn't fun. So I can understand why folks shy away from it. I certainly did when I was living at the edge for a few years after I graduated. (That said, having this data is essential for creating a plan to change that outcome, but thinking long-term is not fun.)
Regardless, things are getting better. Most utilities and other services accept eChecks now with Bill Pay, which allows people to pay for their recurring expenses from one place. Many restaurants and shops use Toast, Stripe, Clover or newer NCR POS's which make it easy to email your receipts. (A pet peeve of mine is restaurants that use Stripe or something like that but don't accept Apple Pay or hand you a bill instead of a mobile POS. Like, come on; you're already paying for these features!)
How long ago is your experience with this from? I ask because I just got my first card from Citi within the last three weeks and was able to turn these on really easily before my card arrived. I actually have a notification for $16 sitting on my lock screen from them as I type this.
If you want to maximize your credit score (and you should since it'll give you better rates, saving you money) you want to have lots of credit cards with high limits.
One of the factors that goes into your credit score your available credit. You want your available credit to be very high but your utilization to be very low (but not zero).
I keep lots of credit cards, at least one or two from every major bank and some from smaller ones. Thus my available credit is very high and so is my credit score.
Some folks in this situation are likely just optimizing for rewards / points / sign-up bonuses. I've had more than 10 cards at a time and definitely have my financial "house" in order. I get many free several-thousand-dollar trips per year to boot.
(For services where it's not possible, I subscribe them to a single credit card, which I treat as though it were another utility bill.)
In those 30 minutes they could cancel unused subscriptions and maybe save $50 a month. $50 a month isn't bad, but it's not going to be the difference between retiring comfortably and not retiring.
Or they could spend those 30 minutes updating their resume and applying to a job; if they apply for a better job every month they could easily find a better paying job that gives them an additional $20,000 a year, especially if they do this consistently.
Overall, I agree people would benefit from more effort put into their personal finances, but people have limited mental energy and their time can be better spent on things other than cancelling subscriptions. Indeed, if someone is willing to put effort into improving their financial situation and the best option society offers them is for them to pinch pennies and cancel their subscriptions, that is a sad situation for them and reflects poorly on society.
Education, applying to jobs, entrepreneurial ventures, etc, all of these have higher expected value than cancelling subscriptions.
irrational behaviour is core to not only people but pretty much every lifeform on the planet.
> [...] basic budgeting, retirement savings, not paying random fees, not paying interest, moving spare money to investment accounts every month, rebalancing your investments every quarter, negotiating rents, negotiating your salary.
These look like things that are generally unavailable to those who can least afford not doing those things.
It's expensive to be poor.
That type of practice could use some sort of regulation.
I'm not surprised at all, a few billions is paltry. I think i have a few subs that i've forgotten about for months or years. I have several bank accounts and several credit cards, things become complicated.
At the time i liked what those people were making, or i wanted to watch a certain series, etc.
>negotiating rents
I have never, ever been in a situation where a rent negotiation would have done anything except ensure I didn't get the apartment.
Is that real? Where?
I've lived throughout the US - Seattle, Atlanta, East Bay, Portland - and each time I've leased a place I've pushed back and asked for cheaper rent. Sometimes it's worked, sometimes it hasn't, but that's never ended a conversation or resulted in them walking away.
The home I'm renting now, I asked my landlord to reduce their proposed rent increase by 75% if we committed to a two-year lease, and they were fine with that. Never been an issue for me, and if a potential landlord bristles at something like that, then it's a sign that things may not be so great after I've signed the lease.
It's as if, when I go to relax or exercise, my only option is hiking in a tick-infested field. I spend an extra 15 minutes prepping my clothes before going out, and an extra 15 minutes checking every inch of my body after I come back in.
It's true that all this extra work is my responsibility. It's also true that ticks suck (literally) and it would be preferable if there were a way to prevent them from parasitizing me in the first place.
Laws exist to protect people from bad actors so our time and efforts can be better spent on things that are valuable to us and society.
Is 30 minutes a month an unreasonable responsibility to protect against companies taking advantage of people with unutilized subscriptions? Should the law be updated to enable people to save people that time and effort? Maybe. I don't think it's an unreasonable thing to at least consider.
A common thing I hear when talking about things like the student loan crisis and the housing market crash of the late 2000s is "well no one forced them to take out those loans" or "I took out a loan and I paid it off, why can't they?" But when it's as prevalent an issue that more than half of undergrad students in the U.S. are in debt, and the fact that poor people taking out subprime mortgages just so they can have somewhere to live can cause a global financial disaster, it starts making me think -- yeah maybe it is the "government's fault". Maybe us smart people on the top have to understand not everyone is as smart as us, and we have to build a system that works for all the truly clueless folk.
I don’t disagree, but I’d point out that this applies to basically anything in life. Relationships, exercise, health, work, etc. The fact is people prioritize and many don’t prioritize their finances. All of us drop the ball on something.
Maybe for someone who already has good financial habits it is 30 minutes, but for people who never bother with this it will take far more time.
It’s designed to be complicated, confusing or easy to forget just so it traps people at least once. It’s borderline fraud sometimes, at least it feels like that to me. The recourse is to be super vigilant but when you let guard down you fall into a trap and it’s hard to beware all traps at all times especially when they’re being constantly evolving
People do check this stuff. Even then it's easy to forget about something for a few months. Or ask if your SO is using something.
There are so many charges on a typical CC statement that spending time every day going through them isn't always worth it either.
But, see...
>No one is looking out for you.
... that's just it, isn't it?
Nobody's looking out for you. We send kids to public school from ages five to eighteen, but at a broad level, we do not have a requirement for any of that education to be about how to take charge, and stay on top of, your fiscal health. I'm not sure how you can look down on others like that when a large chunk of people are kicked into adulthood without ever having been taught how to look after themselves financially.
I'm not sure what the solution is. Frankly I just don't think people are that interested in it - even if you do know about it, looking at your cc bill or budgeting just isn't a thing people want to do. If you know your mortgage jumps up in 5 years, most people will think they'll be able to afford it then. We vote in policies that help the wealthy because everyone assumes that's who they'll be soon enough!
That all being said, I'm not sure how much we should protect people against themselves. I don't mean to take a libertarian view and we can improve the current situation (like making subscription cancelling easier and online), but I don't think solving finances is a tenable one. I'm digressing, but we all like to kick the can down the road, including our national debt or pension obligations.
They may be too exhausted from their second job - or from the one job they have to be on their feet the whole work day - and may not have the mental energy to comb through financial statements. You have the luxury of time and energy, so real reasons sound like excuses to you. I would recommend you (re)read John Scalzi's essay on Being Poor[1]. Except:
>> Being poor is knowing how hard it is to stop being poor.
The link between stress and poor decision-making is well studied, and unfortunately poor financial health is self-reinforcing: being poor is very expensive!
I had a regular order with Chewy, until the dog food brand I was having drop shipped stopping selling that particular type of dog food to Chewy (but I could get it somewhere else). And I had to sit on hold for 30 fucking minutes, just so Chewy would stop charging me (considerably more) for, and shipping to me, dog food that I did not want, had never wanted, and was actually shopping elsewhere to avoid. And I didn't find out that they didn't carry that brand anymore until they shipped "what we believe is the closest match" to me. I honestly thought it was a mis-pick initially, so when I went to resolve it, I followed that customer service UI pattern, to no avail. They've changed it since then, but the fact still remains, that was not at all a scenario I should've needed to call in for. I certainly shouldn't have needed to sit on hold for it. When I finally spoke to the CSR, she was apologetic that I even had to talk to her about it.
> retirement savings, not paying random fees, not paying interest, moving spare money to investment accounts every month, rebalancing your investments every quarter, negotiating rents, negotiating your salary.
Where else do people need to actively manage their pension accounts like in the US? If your employer does not provide a decent 401k they trying to create a solid retirement investment account is an uphill challenge. In most other places it's simply a tax into a pension fund.
> not paying random fees There is very little price transparency. Random fees are typically not random, but hidden. You can't book a rental car online without being hit with some municipal tax or other surcharge at the counter. In SF a health surcharge often added to the bill on top tax. It makes no fucking sense that it is not a part of the price or part of the sales tax. Cellular carriers and ISPs know exactly how much you gonna be paying but will bend backwards to make sure you don't know it until very end.
You are right that basic financial discipline is a personal responsibility, but removing the asymmetry in the relationship between large businesses and consumers is on the government and legal system.
There's so much bullshit required a lot of the time in canceling things or even knowing that you were signed up for something in the first place. Just purchasing something these days will automatically sign up yourself up for endless emails from that and other companies, even if you unchecked the so-called newsletter option. There are so many dark patterns that sign people up for things that they didn't even they got signed up for. I have absolutely been signed up for something, either by accident or a dark pattern, that I didn't realize until latter. It wasn't due to laziness, me lamenting others, or some bad habit. It was due to being effectively tricked and legally scammed.
Companies have used software-based services as a sort of trojan horse, and they absolutely take advantage of people who don't understand technology.
There are lots of challenges to actually canceling subscriptions, but not knowing that you're being charged for something every month? Seems absent-minded to me.
Of course, that's a pathetic excuse, and I tell myself that one of these days I will check my statements but that day never comes.
It's quite easy to be lazy in the moment and put this "work" off to tomorrow. As a result, days, weeks and months go by.
I now use privacy.com for most subscriptions and one-off trials etc. It at least notifies me via email every time there is a transaction.
It was easy to look at statements when they arrived by mail.
But with paperless billing, you've got to conscientiously log into your credit card site each month. If you have four cards, that's four logins. Who's going to do that? Not many.
The only reason I review my transactions it's because it's easy through an aggregator like Monarch (was using Mint before it shut down). And the only reason I do that is for budgeting -- reviewing transactions is just a side effect.
It still annoys me to no end that I don't have a single bank or credit card that will attach my statement as a PDF to a monthly email. As long as there's a secure email transmission connection, I don't understand why they won't do that.
Doing it once a month is easy enough to remember (or put a calendar invite, if you're not able to) and forces me to do a quick validation. In my 20 years of working and being independent, I've never accidentally paid for a subscription longer than one month.
You go on vacation and bill pay day was in the middle of it. Or you're just busy and forget to move the calendar reminder to tomorrow. Or you get through half of them and get interrupted and forget you didn't finish.
I trust autopay far more than I trust myself!
It doesn't work well with variable bills though because I can't schedule an amount I don't know yet to be paid. I'm stuck using a pull for my power bill for instance.
This was the best, and only feature I used on Mint. Quick glance a couple times a month was an easy way to find unusual charges etc. I haven't found a replacement.
$100/year, but they don't sell your information or push you to buy other products, and it has dramatically helped communication about money with my wife. I have a handful of friends who also use it and swear by it.
It's whitespace heavy though -- for people who like something that looks more like an enterprise software dashboard, there's Simplifi.
It seems like Monarch and Simplifi are where the most Mint users have wound up, judging from various forum posts. And they have an extremely similar feature set and interface. But they are both paid.
I have the next month worth of bills and paychecks "below the line" as future transactions, so not only can know what's in my checking account today, but I know exactly, to the penny what will be in my checking account on 18-Feb.
I've in the past found credit card fraud/mistakes within a day of being charged, and have fixed them quickly, before even my next paper statement was printed.
Some friends I know don't have any idea how much is in any of their accounts outside of occasionally seeing a number on an ATM receipt. They might have a budget, but no idea how much all their monthly charges add up to in reality. And yea, they always seem to be forgetting about some subscription or charge. I couldn't live like that--not for me.
Someday, I keep telling myself, I'll be down to one bank account, one credit card, and that's it.
This is something I'd like to have, but I don't want to use Quicken. Partially because I pretty much exclusively use Linux at home, and I don't want to have something as important as financials reliant on a maybe-it-will-work WINE translation layer. And partially because Quicken is now owned by Intuit, which is a corporation I'm particularly disinclined to reward with my patronage.
Unfortunately, every time I've looked at ways to get statements delivered to me electronically from my various financial institutions, it seems that the available options are "don't" and "something that only works in Quicken." (There used to be some open file formats for exchanging information here, but it seems that institutions have started dropping support for them in favor of proprietary protocols, from what I can tell.) I'd be happy with something as meek as "email me a PDF statement"!
It is confusing as an end user, and they don't really do much to explain it. You have to do some digging to understand how it works.
Instead, I have a monthly reminder to pay my bills every month, with a list of all the bills/sites that need to be paid. There's 11 things in the list, but not all of them have a balance every month. I do this towards the end of the month (instead of at the beginning of the month), so that I can include rent in it too, and pay _everything_. It lets me see whether my spending is creeping up and gives me an opportunity to cancel useless stuff. It doesn't take long (5-30 mins depending on how detailed I'm being).
It may be evil for you, but for me, it's an absolute lifesaver.
I'd just had a post-it note stuck to my monitor of the dates and usual amounts for the auto-pays, so I was never caught off guard or surprised amount money moving.
I have a bank account that all incoming money goes into and another that's just for autopay. I transfer the sum of the costs of my recurring expenses into the autopay account from the incoming account, and that's it. Literally set it and forget it. This combined with using Privacy disposable cards for 90% of these transactions and setting hard spend limits on them has allowed me to never look at a bill.
I _used to_ have autopay deduct from a single account. Yeah, that's scary as hell and has caused heaps of problems. Not doing that again.
Apple $4.99
Apple $1.99
Apple $14.99
Apple $4.99
Apple $2.99
Apple $9.99
good luck!
And thinking I'd to categorize my transactions as AppleCare+ vs software vs gaming vs cloud storage vs streaming, for budgeting purposes.
And then just kind of gave up. Apple seriously needs to put more detail in their transaction line, although I guess they can't always when they combine things in a single charge. But even just different merchants would help between iCloud, Apple Store, App Store, and Apple Services. Or something.
The searchable database of charge history would be nice though. My card number has changed a few times due to data breaches at places I’ve used the card and I don’t think my credit card company’s search is smart enough to follow branches.
I really do wish banks or visa/mastercard would offer virtual card functionality. It really would empower users to have more control over their money and improve security and privacy.
A CLI to parse all the emails and roll them up into a nice summary would be a neat little project as well!
But my settings are changed out from under me constantly. So I wouldn't trust being reliant upon them. Which in that case I'd rather have no signal, as this gets categorized differently in my brain where I think we are naturally inclined to believe any signal is stronger than it actually is. So it's harder to lull myself into a false sense of security and the friction is sometimes purposefully self inflicted. I can totally understand how the same explanation and justification can be used in the opposite direction though, to I guess this is a personal thing.
I do still believe that there should be a __legal__ requirement that users must verify and approve any price change to a reoccurring fixed rate subscription. I'm open to not being aware of nuance that needs to be considered or how it can/will be trivially abused, but I have a hard time seeing how this would not be simple basic consumer protection. I do not think it is in the public interest for companies to be able to employ strategies which are intentionally designed to trick the public and/or customers. While I appreciate you laying our your strategy (I just don't think it'll work for me but I'm sure it'll be beneficial to others) I want to make sure that we also do not codify coping mechanisms as solutions to problematic behaviors.
Indeed, I wouldn't want that but glad it's an option.
There's no need to review transactions the moment they happen to catch any fraud. It is fine to wait for the statement and review it once a month. You're still not liable, so there's no rush to do it immediately.
> I really do wish banks or visa/mastercard would offer virtual card functionality.
Some do, although for some reason it has never worked for me (but also have not tried debugging the process too much).
Having it go ping every time like that is definitely a way to have good knowledge of what recurring payments you are making.
On topic, its a great reminder to see say the Netflix charge happened and how much. An example is we subscribed to Viki for a couple months and forgot to cancel. Seeing that charge was a great reminder to poll the house if anyone was still using it.
It can be nice, but you might miss the nighttime ones.
Oddly, I get emails for everything except gasoline purchases. I'm afraid to contact support because in the extremely unlikely event that it gets forwarded to the correct people, the attempted fix would break something in my workflow.
This is an unrealistic attitude. One can insult people all day, but it doesn't change the fact that society doesn't work properly if we don't account for things humans do, even if it only looks like they are hurting themselves. On one hand, we shouldn't use law to force people to "be responsible for themselves" in petty cases (as opposed to e.g. forcing people to have car insurance), but if enough people commit the same mistake, it's almost by-definition not purely their fault - and on a more objective note, it is certainly pointless to waste time wondering how much of it is carelessness and how much of it is reasonable given what else is going on in people's lives and what their experiences and competencies are like. We simply must give a shit, as natural as it feels to want to just let people deal with things themselves.
Again, one can continue to consider these people mostly at fault or try to get them educated or just make fun of them or hyperbolically lament the fall of society or whatever one's preferred flavor of reaction is, but we also have to solve the active problem. Modern society is too integrated and complex to not give a shit.
Ideally, what I'd like to be able to say is that modern humans are too sympathetic and imaginative to not give a shit.
I think there is a rather easy way that we could solve this in a fairly robust way. It could be a legal requirement that when pricing on reoccurring subscription transactions changes that the user has to log in and confirm the change. The reason I'd actually suggest a legal route is because there's many companies that are highly incentivized to create dark patterns that will enroll people in subscriptions at a low or zero rate and then automatically transfer them to higher or paid accounts. It can happen to the best of us, but I'm more concerned with the not best of us. Personally I'm not a fan of a system that allows the easy extraction of money from people who are not as technically literate (i.e. most people). And I really don't think it is a good system to allow legitimate businesses to employ the same tactics as spammers.
If you read the article you'll find that the cases they talk about are specifically mentioning people who signed up for one thing but got a different thing instead. These are deceptive practices, full stop.
While we're at it, I'd love it if companies could stop sending spam from the same accounts they send important information. This dark pattern successfully teaches people to ignore any incoming email to them and explicitly allows this shit to happen. If contracts change, they should simply require a confirmation of that change. Maybe there's something I'm not seeing, but this sounds like a very reasonable and not very controversial take.
If you use your credit card heavily, then this takes a lot more than 5 minutes. Keeping the CC usage light in order to make it easier to manage is important to me, and a key part of that is to avoid recurring charges as much as possible.
"But, if it's that bad, they shouldn't even be signing up for this stuff!", I hear some of you saying. You look for an escape wherever you can. Some little thing that will pull you, even for a moment, out of the monotony of the daily grind. Don't blame these people.
Developer now (a career mistake honestly), but back then I would've never had any subscriptions. Can't imagine being back in those shoes and having the TIME to fully utilize Netflix, Spotify etc.
My advice is if you're in that position, work more. Study more or work more. Trying to avoid it with some escape like watching Netflix is not productive and only makes things worse.
When I was in college, I kept a strict schedule. Classes from 9AM-1PM, work from 2PM-7PM, 7PM-12:30AM I was in the library studying until it closed. My grades suffered but there wasn't any time for TV. I simply cannot imagine getting ahead NOT doing this, and sitting on Spotify or Netflix instead. Almost scary, guaranteed way to remain a dud. But I'm sure it's common. Given life is harder now than it was 50 years ago, I'm sure the lack of effort + lazy ways is why everyone thinks times are so tough. If times are tough, we need to become tough.
For me, that life was satisfying. I needed no "escape", as I liked and struggle to remain productive today and feel more than ever the need for an escape. I often tell people my hobby is "survival". Fixing my truck, reviewing/fine tuning my finances, working on my house, strategizing for life. The issue isn't not enough time watching Youtube. It's that I'm not productive enough.
Doubly true for the "downtrodden" poor. It's just that most of them are not the forgotten men, the abandoned hardy stock from the upper midwest that know what it takes to get ahead. They've been groomed to complain and sulk instead. It's a lot easier. When I meet these people I ask them, "have you done your best for the Lord?". They have everything they need, breath in their lungs. All I ever needed. It's disrespectful to Our Lord and Master Jesus Christ to not do our best in life. Once I see these people exhaust all possible options to improve their condition, then I'll give them a handout and sympathy. Till then, no Netflix, more work. Or suffer, whatever is preferred.
We missed the period of time where you could "work your way through college" and have it paid off by the time you graduated, but we were able to graduate with reasonable levels of debt. I think I had $20k in debt when I graduated in 2008. My first apartment was a $450/mo room in someone's house then a $500/mo studio.
It's not possible to graduate college today only $20k in debt and they're going to make $10k/yr more than I did but have to pay for a $1800/mo studio (the median rent in the same town I got that $500/mo studio in 15 years ago). So it's great that you were disciplined but that's not the only thing that matters and each year things are a little worse for those just starting out.
The only thing you can control is yourself. There's really nothing anyone can do about conditions. I do believe that no one and nothing has more control over your life, than yourself.
You can easily say the same thing about someone who does work a high-tech job. You make so much money you stop looking at your bank accounts. There are so many new grads or even late 20s professionals who barely manage their finances beyond 1-2 months. I would argue middle-class folks manage the idea of a "6 month emergency fund" a lot better than those in high-tech who make 200k+ a year and just don't think about money anymore.
I think the right reasons are:
- folks don't know how to do this (literally what does it means to review your statements and check your accounts + what to look for)
- folks do not understand how manageable it can be once you spend the initial activation energy
- last and maybe most controversial, folks don't have the ability to make it a habit (which then causes every few months for it to become a big hurdle).
No you F-ing can't, and if you even remotely think that, you have never experienced poverty. Life's a lot different when your bills are $X this month and working 60 hours only makes you $X-$1000. "Change your expenses" Oh yeah? Am I supposed to WILL cheaper apartments into existence? Am I supposed to magically reduce the cost of my groceries? Am I supposed to pray away the late fee on my cell phone plan because I literally had $10 in my bank account and couldn't pay it?
It is expensive to be poor, intentionally so. It is a huge source of profit for numerous companies to make poor people pay more for the same service and access.
I'm sick and tired of privileged jerks saying "Just be better with your money" as if you can magically stretch your $15 and hour job to cover $1500 a month in rent, or that you should have no problem scheduling things when you can't even know your work schedule the week before.
What part of "personal responsibility" changes that your rent goes up %5 every single damn year, and your pay check does not?
I grew up in poverty. I only escaped it through sheer luck that I am above average intelligence and my hyperfixation was computers and computing history and programming, and despite a literal full ride scholarship to a second rate state college, I still couldn't afford it without my jackass Rich Uncle, who is exactly the type to complain about "personal responsibility", writing a $10K check. Now I pay $20k or more in taxes every year, for the rest of my life, which clearly offsets the 16 years times $10k a year "tuition" it costs to put someone through public school.
But notably, that doesn't undo the actual, physiological changes in my brain that come from growing up in poverty. These changes cause you to make less rational and less value-positive decisions. But no, definitely my fault that my brain broke when my mom spent most nights screaming and crying and trying to not starve to death.
Meanwhile she has literally won awards in the state for being one of the best teachers. For 30 years. She still cries about the suffering we experienced. But no, better that poor people get screwed over if they don't make perfect decisions, that they are empirically wired to not be able to do as easily as someone who grew up in a not financially stressed household.
Those whom have reached financial escape velocity, or never had to reach it because of good fortune, often are biased towards believing that their current lifestyle is entirely the result of their own decisions and didn't involve luck.
People should act with personal responsibility, but all the personal responsibility in the world won't make a winner in a losing situation. Anyone can do what Warren Buffet does, but Buffet doesn't risk starvation or having his children live on the street when things don't work out.
Is it a human right to live in a $1500/mo apartment? Is it a human right to live within a short commute of your workplace? Is it a human right to have your salary increase commensurate with inflation or your increase in costs when you're doing the same job from 5 years ago?
When someone says "be better with your money" they're not telling you that your $15/hr job should cover your $1500/mo rent, they're telling you that you shouldn't be living in a $1500/mo apartment on $15/hr. I'm willing to bet a lot of them have no idea just how little $15/hr is, though.
This is directly saying that janitors, coffee pourers, cashiers, etc shouldn't be able to live where they work. This is explicitly saying that people who can't get a valuable job should be expected to commute farther, longer, less reliably, etc than anyone else.
Why? Does SV not buy coffee? Does NYC not need to be cleaned? These jobs need to be done, and it isn't the janitor's fault nobody built a damn apartment complex in the city to house them.
First, there is a lot of crap in a bank statement. They are tiring to parse.
Second, logging into and using your banking portal is a chore. First, you have to remember your password. Not everyone is using a password manager. (Love the work that Apple has done to bridge this gap, and I'm ABSOLUTELY LOVING passkeys.) Second, you have to present a second factor. Some (few) banks are with the times and use a TOTP second factor. Many use SMS two-factor. Many will CALL you with the code. All of them suck. Then you have to navigate the new UIs that look very pretty and are designed to simplify common functions (mostly checking your balance) but have made things like filtering your statement by transactions from today more difficult.
Third, many merchants use very confusing IDs that make it confusing to see where a transaction originated from (for example: a restaurant that uses an abbreviated form of their former name or their parent company's name in the merchant ID). Apple, for example, uses APPLE.COM/BILL for iCloud _and_ AppleCare transactions. This segues into my last reason why navigating transactions periodically sucks.
Tracing a previous expense is an AWFUL experience 99.95% of the time.
I capture every single receipt and bank alert into Expensify (moving into Google Sheets), so tracing an unknown charge is very easy for me (search my email; failing that, search Expensify; failing that, log into bank, which is painful; see above). However, I had to spend significant effort building systems and writing code to accomplish this since there are basically zero services that do this for consumer spending.
Most people don't save receipts. Those that do often don't save them digitally. I know this because I work in consulting, an industry where we have to track receipts to submit expense reports, and EVERYONE whines about this. Many have to block time in their calendar to get this done.
Regardless, even if you do save all of your receipts and alerts, you still need to log into the portal for the vendor that charged that $5.95 and find that charge. Portals that can be even harder to log in and navigate through than banks.
Determining which Apple service that APPLE.COM/BILL charge was associated with, for example? Good fucking luck. It's clicks on clicks on clicks. (They also make you use a single card for ALL digital purchases you make with them. Want to buy an album? Want to buy AppleCare for your new iPhone? Are you forced to subscribe to this super critical app on that iPhone that used to be free? The same card is used for all of that. This is the biggest reason why I've been investing time in moving App Store subscriptions into separate accounts. But even this sucks because many app vendors will only use the App Store for managing subscriptions!)
Consequently, when your statement, which you spent five minutes _just trying to get to_, presents an unknown $5.95 charge (that you didn't get alerted on if you had alerts on because your bank won't send alerts for anything below $50), it's easier to say "welp" and charge it back (a whole process in and of itself) or say "it's five dollars" and forget about it.
Yeah it takes a bit of time once or twice a month, but it's worth it I think.
Twice a year or so I catch "late fees" on my spouse's CC that shouldn't be there. Banks just seem to randomly do that because in most cases they'll get away with it.