Hacker News Reader

Comment by ssalka | Hacker News Reader

My way of thinking tends to be monotropic (?), so much so that I can't quite conceptualize what it's like to not think in this way – can others just subtly keep way more items in their working memory at once? If so, how can they maintain any significant level of focus without "tightening" their field of view to exclude certain things?

From my perspective, monotropism is almost to be expected as normal in 90%+ of people. Then again, I may just be extrapolating from my own experience, but if I'm really wrong and only a small % of the populace employs this thinking strategy, I'd be truly dumbfounded.

View on HN

> can others just subtly keep way more items in their working memory at once? If so, how can they maintain any significant level of focus without "tightening" their field of view to exclude certain things?

Anecdotally, I work in layers. If a layer gets too complicated, then a new layer is formed -- breaking apart the current layer, maybe keeping some of the parts and then other parts are only cherry picked into an abstraction and the details shoved into a deeper layer.

Much like I do for software.

Most of the time it works "fine". Sometimes I get so busy building layers that I end up two weeks later and have way too many layers and none of them are clearly identifiable. Ooof. Time for cleanup, another two weeks at least.

My boss calls it "rabbit holes" -- taking things apart, figuring out how they work, picking out what's relevant or useful to me, putting things together simplified...

Tough part is when there's a deadline.

Moving up layers works in software because the lower layers work automatically. But when using my brain, my subconscious can only do very simple things for me and it's very difficult to teach it anything new. So I can move up a layer when planning, but when I'm in the middle of executing a task the only thing that can possibly be on my mind is that task.

> when using my brain, my subconscious can only do very simple things for me and it's very difficult to teach it anything new.

That's fair. I'll often forget the details or maybe the abstraction isn't good enough, or abstracts the wrong thing. I often have to switch layers, pick up some critical info, and keep that in context when working above. Sometimes it happens often -- forgetting piece A to work on piece B, then forgetting piece B to remember piece A, then having to remember all the intricacies.

I stopped trying. I just write unit tests for the layers and details. It also helps me to keep things simple -- if the unit test is too complicated at a lower layer, then the upper layers are going to be even more complicated. So simplifying that layer is certainly necessary.

I resonate a lot with that, and since llms and adhd meds I have become even more capable of building layers and retightening them and making them all work together.

It feels like a constant rabbit hole because once the layers are there, the features themselves can get built in a blink of an eye, so that the balance goes even further towards layer building.

Because of increased feature velocity so does increased feature “ambition”, so in a way the balance just remains the same…

When you're doing something simple like washing the dishes or similar, does it irritate you when someone interrupts you with a reasonable request, like just to ask what you want for dinner? (This has a more specific definition but many think it stems from monotropism: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pathological_demand_avoidance. It's also a common trait to see in autistic people (who commonly take issue with the name).)

Does washing the dishes not sound simple and instead sound like something which would take a fair amount of focus to make sure you're doing it right? It does for me, at any rate.

I feel like I'm sort of like this but it's because I'm ADHD and if I happen to be doing the laundry it's probably because I walked by it for the last week, finally noticed it's inattention and wanted to do it RIGHT NOW before I forget about it for another week or until I need clothes.

I'm reading this article you posted because I wasn't sure of any of this terminology and I never have panic attacks or anything like that, though. I more or less just get startled and want a quick back and forth so I can get right back to it. Definitely could occasionally from off as snappy.

Dishes I also forget about unless I do them immediately. So same thing, when I finally walk by the sink and notice them I hyper focus and knock them out super quick like I'm in the zone.

This paragraph is confusing me, first PDA is totally bad at all of the bullet points but if PDA is not diagnosed with classic autism spectrum it's actually all positive social stuff? Sounds strange.

> Although PDA has its own traits that are separate from autism, people with PDA generally meet the diagnostic criteria by having significant difficulties in social interaction and communication.[1] Alternatively, they may instead be diagnosed with ODD.[1] Those who propose that PDA should be a separate diagnosis from classic autism spectrum disorders, observed that, compared to children with classic autism, those with PDA:

* are more sociable * have better social skills and social understanding * use apparently socially manipulative and shocking behaviour[3][4] * are more interested in people than objects * are more comfortable with pretend play, and * are more imaginative

A lot of women with autism mask it and perform the examples you mentioned in your last paragraph.

It could also very well describe actors like Henry Cavill.

Also, in DSM-V there is only autism spectrum disorder. And people with ASD can be very imaginative, plus traits can be masked. And trained.

My wife did a social study. Because it fascinated her. Yet she masked a lot in her life. Both our parents (mothers) still refuse to accept themselves as such. And yet we sometimes put their nose in the pie.

I definitely feel an emotional response when I am interrupted from my line of thinking. Whether it's doing a task or thinking through a problem, any sort of request that I need to handle which isn't related to the task can be difficult to switch gears to. Fwiw, I was diagnosed autistic and OCD back in the middle of the pandemic because I loved lock down and didn't want things to go back to the way they were. I had so much uninterrupted time where I could think or solve problems. However I didn't realize that loving lockdown was not a normal thing; someone suggested I talk to a psychologist which is what lead to my diagnosis. Hope you can find some answers for you.

I also loved the lockdowns. I used to joke with everybody that I'd been preparing for it since a teenager, and that all of my favourite activities were solo activities anyway. Finally I didn't have to pretend, I could just be at home and happy for X days, and nobody was judging me for it.

It would have been amazing if it wasn't for that whole pandemic situation.

Lockdown was heaven on earth. Suddenly normal to have only comms via internet, or play games or watch movies. No social BS like birthdays or drinking coffee with friends (they have coffee at home, too). Groceries delivered to the doorstep. Work from home (OK, sucks with kids being noisy), ample amounts of space in train, theatre. Bring own food to theatre. God I loved going to the theatre/movie so much with my oldest kid. Shittiest was the video calls. I hate those, just text or maybe audio is fine (TTS/STT too) can't read the body language anyway. Even had a neat job during lockdown, obviously got laid off recently..

I think most people loved lockdown, but the people that couldn't handle it just wouldn't shut up about it.

> can others just subtly keep way more items in their working memory at once?

This is how my mind works, but I've actually found it to be extremely unusual, and I would say your estimate of 90% of people's not thinking like me is, if anything, low.

I normally have anywhere from 4-7 things going on in my mind at once. This is comfortable for me. It takes concerted effort to keep things from popping into the 4th slot if it ever empties out.

I start to notice overwhelm at 10, and become incapacitated at 12. Whenever I reach the point of needing to brain dump and write things down because I'm getting overwhelmed, there end up being 10 things on the list. At 12, I short circuit.

But I'm ruminating on 4-7 things at any given time. My dreams are mostly lucid, and this happens in them too.

I don't know how to answer the "how" question, because as far as I can tell, I've been this way since very early childhood. I remember being 3 or 4 years old and having an adult tell me it's not possible to talk about one thing when you're thinking about something else, and laughing openly because I thought they were kidding. Of course it's possible. What other way is there?

But as you noted, I've found my experience to be extremely uncommon. I think most people can handle two or three things if they have to, but that's all. I can no more understand what it's like to be able to do that without being understimulated than I imagine they can understand what it would be like to experience my brain without being overwhelmed.

The linked wiki page on monotropism states "some students have trouble taking notes in class while listening to a teacher"

So, pretty much in every class I have ever taken the teacher starts out by saying that we don't need to take notes because their lecture materials will be posted online. Why do they say this? Because almost everyone can't take notes and also hear everything the teacher says. The only exception is probably court stenographers.

It feels like professional educators spend a lot of time coming up with ways to categorize people as a bad fit for the classroom rather than evaluating their own teaching methods.

Additionally a significant, perhgaps required, part of the diagnosis would be a history that shows differentiating childhood patterns (symptomology, academic trajectory, social experience, etc). All aligning into a cohesive picture.

>can others just subtly keep way more items in their working memory at once?

I think on the contrary. As I imagine it, you focus on one item, keep it in your working memory, then refocus on the other item, so that you can put both together. For me, both items are just there, and no special effort is needed to handle them. I don't think that the concept of working memory even applies to those who are not "monotropic".

Reply on news.ycombinator.com