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Comment by ChrisNorstrom | Hacker News Reader

This is just further proof that people don't really want an iPad, they want a laptop with a better designed and easier OS. Computers run our lives, yet there's only 2 major operating systems for consumers to choose from. Making them duopolies of the most important technological advancement in history. Mac and PC (and a bit of linux but we're talking consumers here, not sysadmins). And this lack of competition, I think, has really stagnated the OS user's experience.

Can you believe it's 2012 and operating systems still don't come with an manual or a guide?! So of course people are flocking to iPads. They're powerful yet brain dead simple. Which empowers people rather than making them feel incompetent or stressing them out.

I think Steve Jobs made a mistake. Maybe the iPad should have come with a keyboard and competed with the laptops.

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So people really want things like laptops with touch screens and laptops with detachable keyboards, despite those things selling really poorly.. And people dont want the iPad, despite it selling like hotcakes, thats your conclusion?

If the iPad is a mistake, it's a mistake to the tune of 67 million units over two years, and that's limited by manufacturing, not demand. Or you are wrong.

>So people really want things like laptops with touch screens and laptops with detachable keyboards, despite those things selling really poorly

YES.

They sell poorly because they are crap and expensive. Exactly like tablets were before the iPad.

Give me something like the transformer prime, with an a15 and an android + desktop linux combo for a reasonable price and i'll be all over that.

This dock (+retina ipad) has brought me closer to wanting the ipad than ever before.

> Give me something like the transformer prime, with an a15 and an android + desktop linux combo for a reasonable price and i'll be all over that.

So if you combine a bunch of things that each sell very poorly then that would sell really well?

Yes, because they are not mature products. If i had suggested in 2003 we took the tablet PC, swapped in an arm processor and took away all the ports, i'm sure you wouldn't have thought it was such a great idea either.

The basic problem is the age old one- tablets (/os) suck at content creation. That is a problem of both OS and lack of keyboard. So a keyboard alone doesn't cut it.

As for linux, I would take any desktop OS, but MS have already committed to locking down their bootloader + laming arm windows 8, and there are no signs that apple is about to cannibalise their MBA line. OTOH android integrates well with linux, sharing the kernel-- as ubuntu have demonstrated.

And wtf @ downvoting that comment.. why??.

The iPad is a lot more than a regular PC with an ARM processor.

Had you suggested that, and some foolish HP exec would have believed you, then it would have failed catastrophically. The ARM processor is not the magic juice that made the iPad a success.

Touchscreen smartphones were selling fairly poorly. OSX was a niche product. Then they were combined, and the iPhone was born.

After Jobs' comeback, Apple has been incredibly successfully at refining concept products that weren't selling well and bringing them to the mainstream. They'll eventually do the same with tablet/laptop hybrids, I'm pretty sure about that.

A 15" MBA is attractive even to a longtime PC user like me; a 15" iPad/MBA hybrid? I'd order five tomorrow.

No you wouldn't, because it would suck. Touch interfaces would suck to use with a mouse, since they are touch interfaces. And mouse driven interfaces would suck to drive with your touch, since they are designed to be used with a mouse.

You won't see a hybrid from Apple, because hybrids, by their very nature, are compromises. They are more awkward and less useful than the two things they combine. Apple understood this, which is why iOS exists.

You could have two completely separate interfaces for the two modes, or even two different screens; these are design details, I was talking about hardware integration at the conceptual level, i.e. an object that is a real laptop when you want it to be so, and a real tablet when you want it to be so. I say that's eminently feasible, and I consider products like the Transformer Prime as first attempts at a concept that will eventually emerge.

The point about Apple not doing hybrids is simply short-sighted, btw; isn't the iPhone a "compromise" between a computer and a phone? Isn't the iMac a "compromise" between a monitor and a case? And that's exactly why these products are successful: because they give you the best of both worlds in one single physical object. If/when they fail to do that, they end up giving you the worst instead, which is what you mention, but that's not a necessary outcome for all hybrid efforts.

What? No, we don't need operating systems that come with manuals. The last manual I got with a software package ended up a doorstop pretty quickly. What we need is an operating system that doesn't need a manual because it's so intuitive and well-designed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AyuuqsGoXys

Which is what the Mac once claimed to be, but Apple relies on unmarked, multi-fingered "gestures" and two-handed hotkeys. Yeah, it's a clinic of hypocrisy from the company that claimed two-button mice were "too complicated." Then it comes out with one inept, piece-of-shit mouse after another, culminating in a "multi-touch" mouse that you're somehow supposed to hold in place while swiping horizontally with multiple fingers.

Gestures are keyboard shortcuts for the mouse/trackpad. The thing about Mac is that none of these gestures are actually needed for the OS. Pretty much every gesture has a corresponding Dock item to launch it as well.

Gestures are an extra. An added bonus. Think the multitasking gestures for iOS 5 on iPad

I don't care for the multi-touch mouse, but the trackpad is really nice. The gestures probably should be more transparent or off by default though, since I suspect many users find them accidentally and aren't sure how.

There are several short videos about the gestures in System Preferences -> Trackpad.

what the Mac once claimed to be

You mean what the Mac still is.

Apple relies on unmarked, multi-fingered "gestures"

Actually, they are marked quite clearly, and only some of them are multi-fingered, and they are remarkably easy to use.

and two-handed hotkeys

Actually, Mac OS hotkeys are quite consistent and intuitive, and have survived the test of time. command-c, command-v, command-x, command-z, command-s, command-p all do what they did in 1984. It's simply not true that Mac hotkeys are less intuitive than the alternatives; indeed, Windows copied the most-common Mac hotkeys verbatim.

Yeah, it's a clinic of hypocrisy

This is where you really start to run off the rails.

Then it comes out with one inept, piece-of-shit mouse after another

You can argue with their ergonomics, but they certainly weren't pieces of shit. I found at least some of those mice quite usable.

culminating in a "multi-touch" mouse

The real culmination of Apple's input-device path is the Magic Trackpad, which is the best trackpad I've ever used, and it's not even a close comparison. I prefer it to any mouse, and I've used 28 years' worth of mice.

I don't think you mean intuitive, I think you mean discoverable and consistent. One good example is using only symbols to convey meaning, like the new gmail interface. I've not met one person who found it 'intuitive', or even able to easily figure out the functions without hovering to reveal the text. This is because symbols are good for visual searches and being a unique 'landmark', but not for conveying meaning.

Ever since the first iPad there have been cases that have added a keyboard. But, I don't think that most people that have an iPad have an external keyboard for it. So this may be evidence that some people want a small laptop with a simple OS.

But given that Apple has sold more than 60 million iPads without keyboards makes me think that the current design is working just fine for most people.

Well, one might have reached the same conclusion about the millions upon millions of shitty cell phones that were sold right up through 2005. Cell phones with abysmal UIs, retarded ergnomics, and no working sync software.

Sales figures don't prove something is good (or bad).

If this sells 13M units, then it will be proof of something, but as it is it's just a product design.

There seems to be a lot of people interested in this and they just started two days ago

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/552506690/brydge-ipad-do...

Absolutely. But the existence of the product doesn't prove anything the same way that the existence (and success!) of the Tik Tok[1] doesn't prove that Apple should have been competing in the "wristwatches that play music market".

[1] http://www.popsci.com/gadgets/article/2011-05/record-breakin...

Except Apple responded directly to the existence of the Tik Tok. They sell it in their retail stores. They referenced it in their media event. The first highlighted feature in their last update to the iPod Nano was "new watch faces". The success of the Tik Tok (and more recently the Pebble watch) proves something. Likewise the existence and success of all these keyboards for the iPad (thebrydge isn't the first and it won't be the last) proves something.

Much more than a mere design, if you watch the video it appears to be a fully operational prototype.

Impressively, it was designed, engineered, and machined all in-house by a three person team, of which two members had a prior successful hardware project on Kickstarter. The project appears to be the very opposite of vaporware.

The question wasn't whether or not is exists, but whether it is evidence that the iPad itself should come with a keyboard. And the point was that until this sells 13M units, it doesn't show anything about the design of the iPad itself.

iPad keyboards have been around for a long time, but they don't sell in numbers nearly as comparable to the iPad itself. To me, this says that most people in the post-PC world are happy without them...

That being said - this does look like a nice design.

Ah yes, thanks for pointing out my dropping of the original context. A signal that it's really time to get some sleep...

I actually think what this says about the iPad, is how very strong a product & category it is. That it can spawn an ecosystem of very high end add ons to adapt it to different use cases. To me, that just further demonstrates the depth of its conception and quality of execution.

What do you mean computers still don't come with a manual? Used to be nobody used a computer without a book. This is progress.

  > This is just further proof that people don't really want
  > an iPad

I want iPad specifically because it has no keyboard—for me intend use (mostly reading and browsing) it adds very little, but makes the device inconvenient to use. And I prefer to do my racing in portrait mode. If I want to type more, bluetooth keyboard and a stand is more than enough.

We want portability and uniformity.

Similar, familiar, comfortable look and feel across platforms.

The same fundamental data, applications, and generic controls at our disposal despite the medium.

A phone that can plug into a dock, and signal "dock mode" where it accepts slightly different control inputs by way of keyboard & mouse, displays on an external monitor, and possibly offers additional functionality now that it's plugged into a power source - unlock cores, activate dedicated GPU inside the unit, etc.

I believe Microsoft was operating on a similar notion in Windows 8. The way I see it, as your use case changes, the OS would adapt, capabilities change (IOS turns into Snow Leopard when docked).

Oh, I guess when I said "we", I meant "me".

"Similar, familiar, comfortable look and feel across platforms."

Then you'd better get rid of the keyboard on the computer.

I think you missed what I'm getting at. I'm talking more from a software UI/UX standpoint regardless of hardware & input extensions.

I completely agree but want to point out that you should have said, "Can you believe it's 2012 and operating systems don't come with a manual or guide anymore?"

I remember Windows coming with a pretty thick manual explaining how to use it. Either way your point still stands, the OS has changed so little they don't feel like explaining it anymore. But it's not user friendly enough for other people.

>This is just further proof that people don't really want an iPad, they want a laptop with a better designed and easier OS.

Too black and white. Imagine more.

MBP on the bottom, lid snaps off and is an iPad. Compatible applications sync on event: snap off/on between the iPad and the MBP.

So basically it's the Asus tablet and base station affair (or this Brydge thingamabob) but instead of just speakers/keyboard/battery you have the works in the base station and you can plug in a monitor and use it separately from the iPad/screen assembly.

It's not that people want this or that, it's that they want it all.

As someone on the lookout to buy an ARM based netbook or web tablet for a while before the iPad existed, I'd say the chip lock-in was another monopoly that the iPad escaped but gets less attention than it should.

Every time I read a headline about how much money Apple are making, I reflect on how much pent up demand there was for years, held back by the Wintel (and IE) monopolies.

"Chip lock-in"? What do you mean?

People want a laptop with a detachable keyboard and simplicity. With a keyboard (especially one as nice as this), the iPad achieves that goal.

The iPad remains a toy because it is missing one major thing: power.

That's one thing that Windows 8 has going for it. It's got the might of Windows but works on a tablet. That's the right idea, but Windows 8 will be installed on tablets with no keyboard, laptops whose keyboard can't be removed, and desktops.

What we need is the simplicity of the iPad, the benefit of a keyboard, the option to remove the keyboard when we need to, and the power of an OS like Windows, OS X, or Linux. They also need the computing power of a laptop or desktop.

I'm thinking the desktop will be replaced by a dock that lends power to the new generation of tablet, or that mice, monitors and larger keyboards will be available to connect to them. The latter lacks simplicity, so a dock sounds much more feasible. Just plug in and go to work, rather than connecting a handful of different cords.

Asus Transformer Prime.

This is smaller than a MacBook Air and it's a neat solution. Indeed, I think that at the upcoming WWDC we will see something really similar released by Apple.

When I got an iphone a couple months back, it came with a much more extensive manual than I expected.

  This is just further proof that people don't really 
  want an iPad, they want a laptop

It's not really about hardware. I think what people really want is to escape the desktop operating system paradigm.

When someone buys an iPad they are escaping the hangover of using Microsoft Windows for two decades. You'll find most iPad owners love their tablet precisely because there is no concept of files and folders, and drivers, and a long bootup process, and hard drives, and defrag utilities, and spyware, and virus protection... None of that stuff really improve users' experience.

Ordinary people just want to get onto the internet, play some games, and read facebook. Whether the hardware that lets them do this in an easy way is a tablet, or a laptop form factor is irrelevant.

Everyone I know complains most about having no file system, but I agree the average mom who looks at her recipe app won't miss it.

Until she wants to send the recipe to her friend. Or move it to some other app after the vendor goes defunct. Or print it.

Apologists for the crippled user experience act as though a file system is some kind of arcane "nerdy" or "geeky" facility. It isn't. It's how people organize information. That's why we have file cabinets and recipe boxes. It's also how multiple applications can act on the same files.

In iOS we have mobile, handheld Unix computers that are ironically cut off from the outside world on purpose. On those computers we have applications that can't interact with each other or each other's data. This is not progress.

> Until she wants to send the recipe to her friend. Or move it to some other app after the vendor goes defunct. Or print it.

The problem with that is she'll complain about the application being at fault. And maybe it is. After all, sending a recipe to a friend should be easy. And exporting the recipe to some standard format should be available. And printing is something that can happen. None of those complaints can be levied against iOS.

Of course, the flip side is also true: the nature of iOS and the App Store means the app developers really are limited by what Apple will allow them to do. I hate reading app reviews that complain about things that aren't the fault of the app, but rather Apple or another 3rd party.

In essence, I see a damned if you do, damned if you don't approach.

The proverbial "average mom" outnumbers the people who even know what a filesystem is by orders of magnitude.

This is slowly changing and in 2-3 generations everybody will know what a folder-based filesystem was because it'll be prominently listed on the wikipedia page about broken computing metaphors of the past.

>> When someone buys an iPad they are escaping the hangover of using Microsoft Windows for two decades. ... form factor is irrelevant

Form factor is incredibly relevant.

For me it's not about escaping from vendor X, or operating system Y, it's about what the form-factor allows me to do.

It about having the freedom to chose where I want to sit and _the_posture_ I want to adopt when reading stuff on the internet.

Laptops/netbooks got us half-way there (no longer force to sit in a certain location). Their short-coming was you're forced to adopt a certain posture, or put something hard under it so it doesn't overheat (or burn you).

However, the ability of a well designed tablet to open another 'ergonomic dimension' does not guarantee that the tablet can maintain all the other ergonomics of other form-factors.

Some users realize this and think the fix is to make the new device 'morph' into that other form factor. I suspect that some team of people will realize that it can be achieved some other way that is simpler and sexier and make a mint from their idea. It will involve a revolution in input device hardware (and acceptance of that hardware) to get there though.

The Mac IS a PC. If you mean Windows, say Windows.

Can you upgrade your mac's processor and motherboard to whatever you want the way you can with a PC? It goes beyond just an operating system. I like to think of PCs as Personalizable Computers.

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