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Comment by quacked | Hacker News Reader

I've had a similar idea, except in addition to toasters, it's midsize pickup trucks, washing machines, dryers, dishwashers...

What I've found is that regulations make it impossible to sell simple machines, labor costs make it impossible to compete on price, lawyers make it impossible to go to market without being sued, and consumers who say they want reliable, well-made goods will balk and buy cheap stuff en masse when it comes down to the wire. And that's if you actually succeed in designing and manufacturing a good product.

Someone could do it, I think. But I'm deterred by all the stuff I just wrote, and the people who succeed in businesses that seriously challenge the status quo are the ones aren't deterred by that stuff. And for every one guy who does succeed in pressuring the status quo, a hundred guys flame out... but again, guys who succeed aren't deterred by that either!

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> [...] and consumers who say they want reliable, well-made goods will balk and buy cheap stuff en masse when it comes down to the wire.

And I've never really had much of a problem with cheap toasters being unreliable in the first place. But I guess there are people who do?

My main issue is usually that it’s so hard to tell if something is cheap but costs a lot, or if it costs a lot because it’s not cheap. Probably also partially because of price anchoring, where products seem expensive, because many very cheap ones cost even less.

Very true, unfortunately this means that for many modern products it only makes sense to buy the cheapest because then at least you know exactly what you're getting (low quality), even though it's not really what you want. Yet again an instance of Market for Lemons (or maybe Gresham's law).

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Market_for_Lemons [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gresham%27s_law

It depends. For example for Kitchenware (not electronics), I’m very happy with German company Rösle. Usually the most expensive, but always high quality.

Reputation is a mechanism to escape the 'market for lemons'. Eg I know that Miele sells good stuff, and they are defending that reputation by continuing to produce good stuff, because it allows them to charge more.

Gresham's law only applies when someone forces you to accept both moneys at par. Historically, people would require discounts for the bad coins, when they could.

That's also why coins meant for an international audience where consistently of high quality, even when the domestic coins of the same issuer where being debased. (The Spanish dollar was a very good example of this. That's what the Americans used to use.)

And that's exactly because while you can force your own subjects to accept your coins, you have to convince the foreigners. Reputation is key. No 'bad money drives out good money' here. Just the opposite.

When our first cheap toaster broke, I tried to find a replacement part and then started really looking into a 'good' toaster. What I found is that there's pretty much the same metal box inside all toasters under about $200-- and even some of those seemed like they might use the same mechanism. (Cheap but costs a lot!) A few seemed like they might have slightly different control circuitry but not much else aside from the body shell.

I even looked into making my own toaster (though not quite from scratch[0]) but eventually decided I wasn't willing to take on the risk of an untested electrical heating device, in the same way I would be wary of the cheapest toaster from ABCDEFG etc. on Amazon.

Not long after, a customer brought a British-made toaster[1] into my repair shop. I had warned her about the impossibility of getting parts for toasters, but she'd actually already written in to the company and ordered a replacement heating element! It was surprisingly easy to work on, as the timer only controlled the heating element and the pop-up was a manual lever. At first glance that looked like a cheap solution, but on closer inspection it was built well and meant to last. (Costs a lot because it's not cheap.) I hear they still make some like that but the company's cheaper products aren't built the same.

0: https://www.dezeen.com/2009/06/27/the-toaster-project-by-tho...

1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dualit

Consumer Reports is really the only objective measurement out there.

Considering the various federal agencies do this for many many other things for certification/regs ... why not have them also do ratings?

You need objective tests and experienced testers. We know from restaurant recommendations online (4 stars +/_ .2 stars for EVERYTHING) that in the general public there is far too much variance in "good".

Of course the "experts" often fall into the "audiophile" trap in stereos, where a perfectly functional cheap alternative is downplayed for a laundry list of features or a pretty packaging. I mean, we are talking about toasters here.

I wonder how much easier it is for OP to simply walk into China and get a factory setup to do this. Probably some bribes involved but the net cost might be less than regulatory approval here. Then get Chinese manufacturing work and the reverse-migrate a factory here.

If I was overlord of the US, I would be actively pushing US companies to start doing this with heavy US government coopoeration. You know, like China did to us.

> [...] why not have them also do ratings?

So the government is supposed to codify what makes pasta is tasty? Or whether pineapple on pizza is good or bad?

> If I was overlord of the US, I would be actively pushing US companies to start doing this with heavy US government coopoeration. You know, like China did to us.

Huh?

Best toaster I've ever owned is a no-name I bought for about $20 at Lowes when they had them in stock for Christmas season. It makes perfect toast, and does a great job on bagles also.

I bought an expensive, name brand, toaster.

It's crap.

"Expensive and name brand" doesn't mean anything in the toaster world. They all come out of the same Chinese OEM factory with different badges on. Same with most comodity white goods like washing machines, fridges, microwave ovens, etc.

If you want good toasters you need to hunt older models from 30+ years ago.

But what is a "good" toaster?

My $25 toaster works fine. And it's got the modern stainless steel look that blends in nicely with other modern kitchen appliances.

What benefits would a toaster from 1994 or earlier give me? My bread and bagels are currently successfully toasted.

>But what is a "good" toaster?

One that toasts your bread slices evenly every time, without under toasting it or burning it, and without you needing to fiddle with the timer know all the time in order to mitigate those issues.

If your 25$ toaster achieves that it's the lottery winning exception, not the rule. Most toaster are just terrible at toasting evenly even after you fiddle with the knob to find the right Goldielocks setting.

I dunno, I've just never had a problem.

I figure out the right number/setting for the bread I like and it toasts.

What is "even" toasting? Like I genuinely can't tell if my toaster is uneven or whether I should suddenly be unhappy with it. I mean I guess it's not the precise exact shade of tan in every spot, but I've never seen that in my life, even at fancy restaurant breakfasts.

If one part of my toast is a different shade of brown I don't have a problem. I mean, it toasts and it doesn't burn. And I don't think I've won any kind of lottery.

I just feel like I'm missing something here. Cheap modern toasters seem... perfectly fine.

(Mine is a two-slice toaster from Hamilton Beach I bought for $25 which has 11K reviews on Amazon, 4.4 stars [1]. So most of the reviewers seem pretty happy too. It does seem like there are some 1-star reviewers who got duds where the inside and outside toast at different rates, or it doesn't toast half the slice. So maybe there's a quality control issue, but it seems like most people's units, including mine, don't have those problems.)

[1] https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01KZ729F6

Yeah I bought a cheap ~$10 hamilton beach 2 toast unit i've been using for at least 15 years. It's fine, toasts evenly, works with bagels. What else could you want?

I think you need to aim for a luxury-ish niche, or at least a occupy a space where people feel like they're buying a piece of luxury, that's aspirational, where people know they're paying over the odds and that's part of the feel good factor of buying it.

A toaster might well be a good space for that - cheap enough that it can be expensive in relative terms without being out of reach.

But figuring out the marketing of that feels almost as hard as the product.

I suspect a lot of exaggerated appeal to "why aren't things as good/simple/reliable as they used to be?" that might not be all about toasters, but where even an expensive toaster can be cheap enough to become a symbolic buy for people.

I have a theory that anything that takes permanent, visible-realestate in the household has someone of a niche for people wanting tastefully designed things. In essence, things that do not appear "disposable" as so many kitchen appliances do. People pay extra for designer hot water pots. However purely aesthetic upgrade products will need serious work to maintain differentiation.

Dyson is a more glaring example (fans, vacuums, hair dryers), albeit with expensively achieved differentiation on engineering and manufacturing quality.

There are already companies that make nice-looking, higher-end kitchen appliances though - Breville comes to mind, there are probably others. Speaking from personal experience, I have a toaster oven from them that’s lasted close to ten years with zero problems; I’d have a hard time being convinced to pay more for a “made in USA” one unless there was something truly exceptional about it.

Especially when you can sell for more something made in France, Italy, Japan or Germany. I think the "made in" chauvinism is a hard sell if it's the USA, especially to US customer: doesn't feel exotic and isn't cheap, so what's it there for except some cheap cash grab ?

Plus, you know, there are some nice Chinese stuff now and they have an economy of scale that the US simply can't match.

That's why I think you need a compelling story about it. How the poor inventor struggled against the odds to fix the scourge of bad toast, to bring you an exquisite product that makes you feel good to own for the story more than any tangible reason. It needs to be a personal story to set him apart from the other brands.

You could go that one gun coffee brand and make it a camo pattern.

Or go the other way and give it a rainbow pattern? Hell, put one on each side so you can flip it depending on which relatives are coming over.

I think that kind of messaging is largely inherently incompatible with aiming for the high-margin/high-end market whether or not your buyers agree with you. E.g. I'm perfectly fine with a variety of political symbols, but I'd think a toaster emblazoned with them looked like a cheap gimmick, and would expect it to be priced as one.

throw in some tenuous connection to reviving the industrious spirit of Old Detroit ("It Never Died") and you have yourself a brand!

I bought a Breville toaster and microwave when I was moving into and furnishing a new NYC apartment from scratch, and I decided to get something a little nicer, more aesthetic, etc. They were on a major after-Xmas sale so I figured why not.

What I was not prepared for was how much better quality they were by a mile. It's not even close, they're so much more sturdy and well made and they work so much better than the ones I'd had before.

Like the microwave is incredibly consistent in heating, it has a rotary knob for power level so you basically never get the on fire on one side and freezing on the other side thing if you don't want to, stuff like that. The toaster is a joy, it has an elegant little display, the toast is always flawless.

So there's definitely a market for better stuff too. Unfortunately the OP without any prior experience might not be able to hit that bar either.

Note for other readers: due to old licensing deals for names, the brand sold as Breville in Europe is not the same as the one in US, CA, and AU. The one being talked about here is known as Sage in Europe.

And they really are superior-quality devices.

I have trouble understanding your last sentence.

Is Breville EU/Sage appliances the high quality one, or is Breville US/AU/CA the high quality one?

Australian company, so non-Europe Breville is the one I know. I don't believe that the European Breville sells over here.

I m making a separate reply because I understand my answer was unclear.

Sage EU is Breville US/CA/AU/NZ. Those are high quality. It’s an Aussie company.

Breville EU and possibly UK (old agreements that may well predate the EEC, so don’t know any details) not the same; have never used and cannot comment.

How do they compare to the top-of-the-line Bosch (ie. TAT861X)?

Seems to me that the Sage/Breville have more bells and whistles (a LED light count-down, bread type selector...) whereas the Bosch seems to be a more no-nonsense one with better hardware inside (quartz glass heating elements etc)?

Sorry for the late reply but been out of town and not checking. Those are toasters, not toaster ovens.

A toaster toasts bread (and waffles, or other thin flour things). That's it.

A toaster oven began as a category of device that looked like a tiny oven but was built to be a toaster that could do a little bit more than just toast bread. But it's evolved, and modern toaster ovens can take a quarter-sheet pan (it's based on US standard, so it's 13"x9", but more or less the same size is used worldwide in commercial kitchens), sometimes a little larger.

I have never owned a Breville toaster. I have owned three of their toaster ovens, two of which I've given to friends and family when I moved up in size. I don't turn my main oven on, at all, except for holidays, because the toaster oven heats up and finishes cooking the food before the big oven even gets up to temperature. And I live in the southern US, so extra heat in the kitchen is usually heat that the air conditioner has to remove - it very rarely is helping me keep warm (think AGA ranges - those would never work here).

I wait for the sub-freezing nights, of which we usually have 20-30 a year at most (no kidding), to run the self-clean cycle on the big oven.

Hey, thanks for the reply.

I was specifically looking for info about toasters (not toaster ovens) because ours (quite old generic one) recently stopped ejecting toasted slices. I've also read quite a lot of positive Sage/Breville reviews and test results so that's why I was curious about real-life experiences.

In the end, I managed to track down one of the last Bosch models ( https://www.trustedreviews.com/reviews/bosch-styline ), which was a bit cheaper (but still quite expensive for a toaster) and seems to work fine.

However, they claim that this model "uses quartz heating for even toasting" - yeah, no. ;)

They have really superb build quality in all the ones I've had, but I've only ever used the toaster ovens (which are so good that they're my go-to wedding gift if it's someone I'm close enough to that I'd spend that much). Glad you found one that's working out for you.

People will do Bosch or Miele appliances because it sounds good in a real estate listing, but that’s relying on the cachet of a known brand.

I looked at a condo once with an interesting sort of art deco kitchen on and a custom refrigerator that fit the theme. My first thought was, it’s got to be hell to get parts for that or find someone who knows how to work on it.

I have read numerous posts on HN where Miele appliance owners swear by their reliability and repairability. I see Bosch mentioned less often.

"I have read numerous posts on HN where Miele appliance owners swear by their reliability and repairability."

Used to be. We had the same Miele devices for years, but I think their modern versions got downhill as well.

Sub Zero and Wolf is also the US “sounds good in a real estate listing” and with prices to match. You can easily be over $10k for a fridge or freezer!

Worse is the warranty: we had an LED strip behind the crisper drawer fail after about 3 years and it was “Sorry; you’re out of warranty, that will be $220 in parts and $260 in labor”.

I recently discovered someone doing this.

Revolution Cooking sells $280 and $350 toasters. They have touch screens, dozens of modes optimized for different kinds of bread, gluten-free mode and 7 toastiness levels. One of my colleagues has one and loves it dearly.

It appears to be a US design firm that uses contract manufacturing:

“we developed a proprietary alloy, a new, more efficient component design system, and intelligent heating algorithms that adjust in real-time.”

“Tom assembled a team of world class engineers, designers and product marketers in Boston, MA, where Revolution Cooking is headquartered today.”

https://revcook.com/pages/compare

>lawyers make it impossible to go to market without being sued,

This would be my biggest concern. The potential field full of landmines that is the patent process would give me pause. Not spending the money to properly research because of bootstrapping the process could ultimately be more expensive if some other company comes after you for patent infringement.

Whatever your idea is, I would definitely do some investigating before investing too much time and effort getting too far down the road to ultimately hit a patent caused dead end.

The trick is to tie it up in court for years, while you milk the marketplace. If you lose, pivot. That seems to be a standard playbook.

I doubt a bootstrapped company has the finances to afford lawyers to tie it up for years. That's a lawyer's wet dream of a case being extended for years. The billing on a case like that alone could make someone a partner.

Just because one side's legal playbook says delay, the other side can equally try to speed things along. Underestimate opposing counsel at your own expense, especially when they are funded with deeper pockets than yours.

Usually you’ll be sued for your profits and ordered by the court to stop selling during legal proceedings. And if you don’t, triple damages.

that should be treble ... ba dum tsss

> midsize pickup trucks, washing machines, dryers, dishwashers...

"simple machines"?

To be fair, washing machines are extremely simple. The trucks, a little less so.

A washing machine spins at up to 14-16 hundred RPM, while contain weight that shifts and changes based on the water added. I wouldn't necessarily define that as "simple", either.

Yes, a couple of counterweights take care of that. Tear a washing machine down and you'll discover that there's not that much inside.

A 2004 Toyota Tacoma vs a 2024 Toyota Tacoma is a simple machine.

Does the 2004 Toyota Tacoma have fuel injection or ABS (Anti-lock braking system)? If yes, neither are simple. And, can you provide some specific examples that demonstrate 2024 model is substantially more complex than 2004 model?

You're being deliberately obtuse. The feature list in the 2004 Tacoma is significantly shorter. Every mechanic who's been in the business for long enough says that older trucks were easier to work on.

If I climb in a modern car that I remote started from my cell phone, automatically adjusted the seat to my preferred profile, and booted up an onboard computer to allow me to pick between media playback and navigation, and I say "I miss when this model of car was simpler back in the day", are you seriously going to try and make the claim that there's been no increase in complexity?

>washing machines

Among your examples I think this one is interesting.

Speed Queen is regarded as among the best washing machines + dryers and they are made in the US. They are extremely well built, they feel really sturdy to use and also are known for being extremely reliable.

I guess what I'm imagining is the Speed Queen of toasters..

Just don't use any plastic parts, over-engineer the whole thing internally, no wifi, just a dial for temp and lever to engage. All these fancy toasters still can't toast bread.

If you do WiFi, do it right. Nobody wants to install a toaster app but many Devs would enjoy a little API for their toasters

I would imagine the percent of people who are looking to buy an expensive toaster is small, the percentage of those customers who know how to code is even smaller, and the percentage of those programmer customers who have time to and are also interested in programming their toaster is vanishingly small.

You might be right but I highly believe that it would increase in popularity once you have more local only devices in this space.

I have plenty smart devices with stupid apps, but I would pay premium for a quality product with a simple API and no third party servers anytime.

Personally I base many buying decisions around 'hackability'

Edit:// actually I think this is a coming market as Google only recently started to support smart devices without third party servers for their home app so before that local only ment no Google home most of the time.

I am honestly struggling to find any use case to an iot toaster. Keen to understand what you have in mind.

Smart timer, finish notifications and statistics. Nothing would make my breakfast better, but I surely cannot be the only one who would pay more for a device like that. Maybe I am..

Or the old-school KitchenAid mixers

https://www.hobartcorp.com/products/food-prep/mixers/n50-5-q...

any small kitchen appliance that says "ask for a quote" is probably gonna be outta my hobby kitchen/cooking budget

Yeah, an N50 is around $4500. A Kitchenaid is like 1/10th of that. The original KA was the domestic version of the Hobart.

We bought a set of Speed Queens a couple of years ago and they've worked out pretty well so far. No IoT crap. Not cheap, but not really more than, say, a Bosch or something of that ilk.

For a toaster, what you need to do is recreate the Greatest Toaster of All Time, the Sunbeam T-20. (And then after you do that, recreate the Sunbeam CG-1 waffle iron.)

They’re also known to use a ton of water, be extremely inefficient, and destroy your clothing much faster than a modern washer. Fetishizing “the good old simple times” isn’t going to get us to better products.

citation?

I never heard of Speed Queen, or even seen one, but someone recommended them on here a few weeks ago

I'm in Europe so we don't have these, but I got interested in what are speed queen. Turns out they are laundromat machines that are also sold for residential use.

This article does say it is not an efficient machine. they tweaked the normal cycle to pass the DoE efficiency test (but your clothes are not washed), and left alone the inefficient cycles which are not checked by DoE: https://www.nytimes.com/wirecutter/reviews/speed-queen-revie...

I’ve only ever seen Speed Queens in laundromats in Eastern Europe.

I will grant them this: the branding is not lying, they are fast as fuck.

I've only used them very occasionally in laundromats when travelling.

They are fast, but the clothes aren't cleaned properly.

I had no trouble with them cleaning some heavily dirty clothing (from doing construction works), I guess mileage may vary somewhat.

I did notice that the dryers (which I think are the same brand) have a hard time properly drying some articles such as thick wool socks within their programmed time.

Using a ton of water is a plus. Saving water is a necessity in overcrowded megalopolises maybe, imposed on all the rest.

Those are two sides of the same coin though. More durable machines (solid, thick components for example) will be heavier and in the example of a washing machine will require more energy to move. Washing machines have also become much cheaper than 40 years ago, making them more of a disposable item.

I think this is why entrepreneurship immediately has people thinking of tech startups over anything else, because it's one of the few remaining forms of entrepreneurship in the purest, rawest sense: a single scrappy individual creating outsized value with limited resources. A guy, his laptop, and an internet connection, with almost no red tape in his way.

Regulatory capture & gratuitous litigation has made true entrepreneurship impossible in many domains. It's state-endorsed oligopoly of heirs, heiresses, and corporations.

Any gals?

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