Spotted water hemlock: the most toxic plant in North America (2017) | Hacker News Reader

Spotted water hemlock: the most toxic plant in North America (2017)

atlasobscura.com

104 pointsPaulHoule132 comments

Somewhere in the Cooking Issues archive there's a Dave Arnold rant about how dangerous foraging apiaceae (I remember him referring to them as umbillifers, or maybe less accurately as umbillaceae, which I found memorable because it describes the shape of the plant vividly) is --- because there's delicious stuff there but also some of the more widespread umbillifers can straight up kill you.

> There are many reports of the spotted water hemlock’s use as a suicide tool among the Iroquois nation; the most commonly cited occasion is upon the discovery of marital infidelity. There are plenty of other ways to take your own life; the spotted water hemlock is specifically chosen because it causes the most horrible, painful death possible.

why would they go for the most painful death possible?

People didn't always do certain things (like committing suicide) the easy way, they often did them in the most dramatic way possible. This was generally true up until around the Industrial Revolution.

They could be forced into taking it. Or they may choose the painful death to erase the shame of the infidelity, similar to how seppuku was sometimes done.

To make the person who wronged you feel extra guilty and disgraced in the eyes of the community.

In the news quite recently a woman doused herself with gasoline and lit it in protest over wholesale Gaza slaughter. She does not seem to have slowed the process.

Probably the best-known example of self-immolation as protest took place a full 10 years before the government it was protesting collapsed.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Th%C3%ADch_Qu%E1%BA%A3ng_%C4%9...

As Thích Nhất Hạnh said, it should not be seen as a suicide but as a way to draw the world's attention to the situation in Vietnam. The distinction is crucial. Cannot remember where I read it.

This seems to be a relative of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conium_maculatum

(spotted water hemlock vs poison hemlock)

This exists in Europe. Socrates used this plant to kill himself.

Never ever touch this plant. Don't ask me how I know this. :-(

Sorry, but now I have to ask how you know this…

He's obviously Sacrotes, the AliExpress version, who ate spotted water hemlock instead of poison hemlock.

Hemlock and Sun make a nasty pie:

https://www.leben-und-erziehen.de/kind/gesundheit/riesenbaer...

This is discussed by the article:

> There are toxic plants that may kill you but will be nice about it. “Poison hemlock is much better,” says “Wildman” Steve Brill, a New York based foraging expert and tour guide with an encyclopedic knowledge of the edible and not-so-edible plants of the Northeast. “You just stop breathing and your heart stops.” Socrates, when choosing death over a life in exile as an old man, chose poisoning by poison hemlock. It was a gentle death.

> Poison hemlock is related to spotted water hemlock, but, um, only taxonomically, not in the way its poisons affect mammals. Here is Brill’s explanation of what happens when you eat spotted water hemlock:

> Every single muscle starts firing and contracting, so you have convulsions, you chew your tongue into ribbons, you vomit but then you can’t open your mouth because the jaw muscles are contracting 10 or 20 times as hard as they normally do, and you die a horrible death

Which one. Both?

Socrates used regular poison hemlock. He would have recommended not using spotted water hemlock for anything but on his political enemies, who had a point.

Though the effects of both poisons couldn't differ more.. gentle death one might choose in certain circumstances vs death you wouldn't even wish your worst enemy.

Recommend reading the article, not only because of this detail and that your "seems" would have become certainty before posting, it has even more nice points ;)

The article mentions that spotted water hemlock is not particularly common, but unfortunately the same cannot be said for poison hemlock. It is a omnipresent weed around here (Pacific Northwest). And it remains poisonous for years after it dies, which makes disposal a problem. This also is a huge issue if it gets into a hay-field. I have heard that some people have tried to burn it, with very poor results.

Also, in this terrible plant family is Cow-Parsnip. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heracleum_maximum. If touched, it causes your skin to be excessively sensitive to the sun. It is basically reverse-sunscreen.

Let us pass silently over hogweed.

In Dutch this plant family is nicknamed “Bear claw” for the damage it can do.

There’s also https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heracleum_(plant) from the same family (carrots). If you touch it and go in the sun you get crazy sunburns. It is an invasive species common in eastern europe (ukraine, russia) where it grows out of control and apparently has been detected in 16 states here

Semi-serious question: can I keep a poison hemlock as pet, just in case I need it in the future? I.e., are there laws around growing the plant, just like it'd be for marijuana?

Also, are there more details on Socrates' intake of the said plant--any particular recipe or precautions?

Interesting that it doesn't use the normal advertisements of danger (bright red colour, bad taste, etc.). Instead the thing looks harmless, tastes nice, and kills mammals at a small dose. I suppose it works to protect from anything that herds since killing one is sufficient to keep the herd away.

Are cows smart enough to do a post mortem on who ate what random plant three hours ago?

Their ancestors were smart enough to stay out of that particular thicket, afterward.

Typically they have dug up and eaten the tasty-smelling tuber. The most daring cow chowed it while the others goggled, and remembered the smell forever after.

Evolution has amazing power to change behaviors in inexplicable ways. Sudden reliable death at small doses is a fairly powerful evolutionary pressure.

The ring of convulsing and dead is a bit disconcerting…

One would think so, but ...

I was on one of those investigative rabbitholes and stopped in at various rodent traps. One of the antiques was this contraption with eight holes, in a line, in which rats could stick their heads and be swiftly killed via your basic spring-loaded spinal injury.

Anyway, you could have seven dead or dying rats, heads in, and another rat would clamber over the victims, both the twitching and the finally-still, just to stick its head in the only open hole. The presence of kin corpses and dying nestmates was an insufficient deterrent.

Rats are like that though, they will eat each other over plentiful food sometimes as well.

I don't eat stuff that I don't totally, 100% know and trust. Wild shit, never.

There's this fascination of people towards eating exotic stuff (defined as "non domesticated plants"), like wild garlic (Allium Ursinum), I see people selling leaves at the market. A slight mistake and they're buying Lily Of The Valley which looks very similar but will kill you.

Or wild mushroom people. I'm not touching wild mushrooms with a barge pole, couldn't give a s*it what experts say and how great they taste. I'd rather eat bread and water and stay alive than risk kidney failure and agonizing death.

I guess people are curious on experiencing interesting tastes but as they say "curiosity killed the cat".

In fairness, there’s a method to eating exotic plants that isn’t just “ram it down the hatch”. You smell, look, and feel for anything that seems off-putting. You touch it to your tongue and wait 30 minutes to see if anything happens. You make sure you’re within range of EMS with people around. You eat a very small bite to begin with.

But yeah, unironically please don’t eat exotic plants I don’t want anyone to die for a silly reason.

We have this method nowadays not so available to our recent ancestors, "look it up". Do that one first.

There's a theory[0] that the bloke from "Into the Wild" died from seeds that weren't in his fieldbook because they had never been known to be poisonous at the time. Again, though, I agree - pack your own food into the campsite.

[0]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chris_McCandless#Swainsonine_i...

If it's not in your fieldbook, don't eat it.

This is the only way. It is a tautology, but a plant is only safe to eat if you know it is safe to eat and can identify it correctly.

It misses the step of crushing it and applying it to a patch of sensitive skin and waiting days waiting for rash or boils to show up, which comes before putting it in the mouth.

That said, these sort of strategies are for actual explorers living off the land, not people that have all human knowledge beamed to their phone.

Isn't this method failing with the most toxic of mushrooms? "Death caps (Amanita phalloides) have been reported to taste pleasant.This, coupled with the delay in the appearance of symptoms—during which time internal organs are being severely, sometimes irreparably, damaged—makes them particularly dangerous."

So funk that, unless some life or death situation like facing starvation, there's a zillion things to eat and taste without the need to try what I don't know for sure.

The South American tapir eats toxic plants all day long

But only one leaf off of each, and then eats kaolin clay.

The tapir is wise as was Mithridates, as told by Housman:

  There was a king reigned in the East:
  There, when kings will sit to feast,
  They get their fill before they think
  With poisoned meat and poisoned drink.
  He gathered all the springs to birth
  From the many-venomed earth;
  First a little, thence to more,
  He sampled all her killing store;
  And easy, smiling, seasoned sound,
  Sate the king when healths went round.
  They put arsenic in his meat
  And stared aghast to watch him eat;
  They poured strychnine in his cup
  And shook to see him drink it up:
  They shook, they stared as white's their shirt:
  Them it was their poison hurt.

  I tell the tale that I heard told.
  Mithridates, he died old.

But don't neglect the kaolin.

Funny - I was just picking a ton of these out of my yard last summer. They smelled like carrots, which I found interesting. I researched them at that time and realized they were indeed known as a "wild carrot"

That is probably a different plant also known as Queen Anne's Lace, which is an edible wild carrot that is invasive and everywhere in the midwest and harmless. It is unfortunate that the two look similar. Queen Anne's Lace thrives in dry conditions whereas spotted water hemlock as the name implies grows in damp conditions.

I saw a great deal of Queen Anne's Lace even in mid-northern Finnland.

The most easily-spotted difference is that the flower bunch of QAL is flat. On spotted water hemlock, it is smaller bunches splayed out.

The ONLY sure fire way to know you have QAL is by the presence of a central flower, usually black or purple, sometimes red. QAL also bunches up more than hemlock (which has gaps in between the flower clusters), but regardless, you should never eat it unless you know for sure. QAL is like a very fibrous carrot

There are quite a few plants which can kill you but it's probably better that they're not widely known. I knew a guy who worked as an ER doc and he talked about how in Sri Lanka there was a widely known and common plant which could kill you, and people overdosed on it regularly (suicide attempts).

Sounds like it has the same effect on mammals as fly spray does on insects?

i.e death via full body convulsions

It disrupts the nervous system, so in that sense it is similar. There is a fundamental difference in action though, pesticides (like most nerve agents) are based on a structure called an organophosphate (general structure O=P(OR)3 ). Most pesticides and nerve agents act on something called acetylcholine (ACh) or the enzyme that breaks it down, called acetylcholineesteraste (AChE). There are other classes though, such as sodium channel blockers, and in the case of water hemlock it's a bit strange.

No one is 100% sure just what the mechanism is, but it appears to have something to do with GABA. In particular cicutoxin (the active molecule) seems to hyper-excite the receptors involving GABA, which leads to seizures and death. It's interesting in that sense, it's much more violent than most nerve agents, for which the seizures and so on are just side-effects, not the lethal mechanism.

> In particular cicutoxin (the active molecule) seems to hyper-excite the receptors involving GABA

Other way round. Cicutoxin is an ANTagonist to GABA receptors, pretty much the opposite of classical sleeping pills (benzodiazepines and z-drugs). As such, taking it is probably extremely similar to delirium tremens, the potentially deadly manifestation of alcohol, benzo or z-drug withdrawal after severe addiction. A horrid way to go.

Hyper excitation of GABA receptors would lead to coma and potentially death via cardiac arrest or pulmonary aspiration -if it happens, death by benzo overdose must be a truly gentle death, but rather unreliable even with extreme dosages I would assume.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cicutoxin

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benzodiazepine_overdose

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delirium_tremens

Spotted water hemlock is the most toxic plant in North America - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22631069 - March 2020 (59 comments)

Australia has entered the chat with the Gympie Gympie:

https://www.newsweek.com/world-most-dangerous-shrub-suicide-...

And prescribed in homeopathy under the name Cicuta Virosa.

(https://plankhomeopathy.com/blog/cicuta-virosa/)

Well to be fair that’s literally just water…

> Homeopathic medicines are prepared by potentization where the dynamic curative power of the medication is aroused, so homeopathic medicines produce negligible side effects.

Well, that makes me feel better.

Good news, the regular effects are also negligible.

To be fair, most of us tend to be dehydrated, so some beneficial effect is expected

Im guessing nobody dies from this, since 30C is water.

The catch is that they’re also without any benefit, and they’re poorer to boot.

With less money to poison themselves with, then. Among those who don't know any better than to buy from homeopaths, that may make the difference.

Nice one.

Homeopathic snake oils are diluted so many times they pretty much guarantee there are no traces of original substance left (they believe the more times it is diluted, the more potent healing powers it gets). I think default is 30 times dilution, each time with ratio 1:100, so you're left with 1e-60 of original, so if you'd put all atoms from milky way (1e68) and start homeopathic them, you'd be left with number of atoms that make ie. a virus (influenza has roughly 1e8 atoms).

I had no knowledge of snake oil terms, so I was confused by the "30C is just water". So after reading your comment, I had to go look it up and came across this [0] with description of the terms. For anyone else ignorant of snake oils ;-)

[0] https://homeosource.org/how-tos-for-homeopathy/what-does-hom...

To be fair, the water used for dilution has orders of magnitude more of stuff already dissolved in it, if only from the person breathing on it.

Surely, you're not implying that someone making a snake oil would be doing so in a non-sterile environment without any kind good manufacturing practices being used. These things seem so trust worthy. I mean, even the government feels they need no regulations because they do it so well themselves.

To be fair, most probably don't actually bother with the original solute, and instead sell straight-up distilled water. Or just tap water.

"Within the expansive Apiaceae family are some of the tastiest ... food plants in the world: ..., celery..."

Hmm, we have different tastes.

It's pretty big as a seasoning/spice.

Tastes like soap. So, big for people who like soap.

Are you thinking of cilantro? Never heard anyone say that of celery, only cilantro.

Cilantro too.

Exactly, the famously soap-tasting vegetable… carrot

Is there some genetic condition that makes you hate the taste of pretty much all that plant family? I like a very slight anise flavour in cookies, and carrots are pretty versatile, but all of the others are on my "everybody but me loves them but you can ruin any dish with them" list.

There must be. I posted a similar comment. I can't stand the taste of celery (tastes like grass and paint$ or cilantro (tastes like soap), and carrots also have a hint of soapy taste to my palate. Otherwise, I love all vegetables and cook often.

Super tasters is genetic condition for heightened and different taste. Super tasters commonly have problem with coriander/cilantro having soapy taste. But could see more of the family being problem for some people. I wonder if carrots are fine because those eat the root and not the leaves.

I have a problem with coriander, but never saw myself as a super taster. Growing up, I was very picky with food

Celery is one of the main vegetables in mirepoix (an essential part of French and French-influenced cooking), soffritto (an essential part of Italian cooking used for most sauces), and is also used in many soups, stocks, and stews. I think you like it a lot more than you realize; you're just only thinking of eating it whole, raw.

Right, it's an "aromatic," and many dishes wouldn't taste right without it. Or, if you only ever eat dishes that don't call for it, I feel sorry for you.

Yet, all dishes taste bad with it.

Do you like soup? Most European soups taste better with some sautéed celery in them. (Or taste worse if the cook neglects their celery.)

Of course I'm assuming you are getting decent, flavorful celery, not water-logged cardstock.

To me, all dishes with celery taste worse. I can't stand the flavor or smell of it. When I'm cooking, I always omit it. I'm not a picky eater otherwise.

Even raw it can be lovely, very finely diced into something like egg or chicken salad. It adds a bit of savory crunch, a lightness and some of that aromatic zip.

Finely diced pickle can do the same thing though, for people who really hate celery.

Perhaps there is a generic situation at play? Cilantro to me tastes like soap, and celery to me tastes like grass mixed with paint thinner. I can't tolerate it in any form.

But I love to cook and adore every other vegetable. Just celery and cilantro are abhorrent to my palate.

Hey fellow cilantro-sufferer, I also have that reaction to it. I love so much of the food it's in though, and cooks often struggle to understand that it isn't pickiness, it's vile to me. I... also find large amounts of raw celery to be unpleasant, although I like it well chopped into a rich mayo-based salad. Still you can barely taste in in there.

I think you might be on to something.

Well, carrot, celery, and cilantro (coriander) all share a common ancestor and it's not too fanciful to suppose that they might contain the same compounds that trigger people who have the aldehyde-detecting gene (ORA62) that is responsible for the dislike of cilantro.

There was a study written up here where the authors sequenced the cilantro genome and compared it to other plants, if you want to go down this rabbit hole.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7206992/

I love a good rabbit hole, and I didn't know about the common ancestry. Thanks!

Wow! Well this explains why carrot tastes like soap to me too, but no one ever talks about soapy carrot flavor!

Damn, i feel for you not ever knowwing how truly amazing cilantro is.

This is pretty common, I can taste even very small amounts as a soapy flavor. I think it’s genetic, a chef I met once said they take a test for it in school so they know for sure but if you have it there’s really no doubt. Fwiw celery tastes good to me so they are probably unrelated phenomena.

I'll eat it in specific contexts: chinichurri and salsa verde, which have sufficient garlic to mask the taste. But I do feel a bit wistful that I can't truly enjoy it.

For me it's cruciferous veg. Broccoli, cabbage, brussel sprouts, etc. Even smelling them makes me nauseous.

There's this traditional Norwegian dish called fårikål. Literally means "mutton in cabbage". Cooked in a casserole for hours. It's the freaking national dish too. This shit is so fragrant, if someone at the table next to me orders it my appetite is basically gone.

> tastes like grass mixed with paint thinner

How does one acquire the necessary reference point to make such a determination?

I have a serious answer to that question... and its name is "Bison Grass Vodka, from Russia."

I’m not aware of a bison grass vodka from Russia. I quite like the Polish bison grass vodka (Żubrówka). Though perhaps that’s your point.. the Russian variant having notes of paint thinner?

The bison grass mostly adds coumarin as a flavor component, which is the same component that gives Tonka beans their main flavor (also the popular Waldmeister in Germany). Personally a fan of that Vodka, never found it tastes anything like grass. But maybe we talk about a different one, I only know the polish one from Zubrowka.

By associating their smell?

As another comment said, I'm guessing on the taste of paint thinner from its smell.

I know what rocket fuel mixed with coffee tastes like ... you can guess how that reference point was acquired.

No, it fouls soups. I always know if there is a trace of it. As the other commenter remarked, lighter fluid. Or turpentine. It gets worse cooked.

I've heard there's a gene that makes cilantro taste like soap to people who have it. Being that celery and cilantro are related, I wonder if there's something similar going on? Celery certainly doesn't taste anything remotely like lighter fluid or turpentine to me. Maybe even the same gene?

Celery has nice texture, not nice flavor.

thats entirely subjective, I love the flavor of celery

I used to think like this. It’s mainly because my only encounters with celery were teachers who thought celery and peanut butter was a good “snack” for kids. Gross.

But in cooking, it’s great. The purpose of celery is to break up the rush of flavor that sauce brings. For example in a stir fry, meat and rice tend to take on the flavor of the sauce (or even become enhanced by it). Celery does not. Sauce doesn’t stick to it. Celery adds dynamics to a dish by adding a pause to the flavor. And in the context of a mouth full of meat and sauce and rice and peppers, celery gives it all meaning by being none of that.

Celery adds paint thinner to a dish.

I can't think of anything that is not better without paint thinner.

Its quite salty for a vegetable. Also try buying some from a chinese or farmers market and you'll find more strongly flavored celery than the generic grocery store stuff that is crunchy water

I eat it raw daily. I would say it's a developed taste but i liked it the moment I had it. My sibling on the other hand would not even eat a meal if celery was cooked with it.

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