Consider this a job offer to work at 42Floors
42floors.com
42floors.com
edit: all i'm trying to say is there are top 90% devs, and 99% devs, and 99.9% devs... not exactly sure that 42Floors needs them. if they did need them, they wouldn't be saying things like
> We can't compete with Google or Facebook on salary. We
> can't compete with being a founder on equity. So the most
> important thing I have left is my ability to commit to an
> individual employee's personal development
by the way, I quit my 90% job to do hacker/school this summer, I intend to come out a 99er with mad functional programming chops, looking to join a team of 99.9ers so i can someday become one.
I ask this honestly...why would the best and brightest want to work for consumer-facing companies with minimal salary and the equivalent of a lottery ticket for cashing out in 4-5 years? Maybe I just don't get the SV hype--I'm from Chicago. I thought we were past the rockstar/ninja stuff. Don't you just need people who can, ya know, "deliver" and "execute your tasks efficiently." Maybe even scale your app to multiple EC2 servers. And maybe if they're really motivated, contribute to your "vision."
I'll admit that my "lifestyle" business plans are basically the same-- a fairly simple B2B CRUD app that hopefully gains traction when I release it. But I would never even think of courting the kind of talent I would expect to be attracted to NASA, SpaceX, <insert green energy startup here>, etc.
What am I missing?
but yeah quite often it seems like these companies with thousands of developers...could be run with a 20 times smaller team
With that said the issues involved are as such:
1. If you had equity in a company (and sometimes even if you don't) it is not uncommon to sign a non-compete contract as part of the sale that bars you from working for a competitor for about a year. 2. Often, much of the value of the sale for employees is structured as retention payments, i.e. they set up a number of bonuses that are spread out over a few years, and you need to work at the company for that duration to get those bonuses.
That said, if you only WANT for solid players, you usually end up with crappy ones.
but it doesn't matter if people are unaware that they're not the best. software gets built, money is made, and people sort themselves into the type of job they're ready for. especially because ability to build a highly valued company is probably a seperate dimension of "goodness" than coding chops. and a more valued dimension.
Of course being "the best" depends on the company. Let's consider someone like DHH from 37 Signals. He created a very popular web framework and a suite of popular products so no doubt that he is a very productive and talented developer. However would he be the best person to choose if you wanted to do complex cryptanalysis or develop a high performance OS kernel?
What if you took someone who was skilled in these things and gave them David's job, would they be "the best" then?
I think it is this confusion that makes interviewers think they must ask complex math questions to interview someone who's day job will be to write code that generates HTML.
There also seems to some confusion that you are only elite if you use the latest and coolest tools, which leads to weird stuff like someone who made a web 2.0 social chat app in nodeJS being considered better than someone who designed and implemented a 6 nines reliability infrastructure system for a bank but who was building on top of legacy Fortran/Java/Oracle.
You say that you have the best and brightest so that you can say you have the best and brightest.
I find it very HN of you to think that programming talent means being able to churn out code fast that does difficult things.
I'm just guessing here, but maybe 42floors want to make good, well engineered software that users love to use and that is maintainable for a while still. This has very little to do with being a "haskell/clojure ninja", yet very much with software talent.
I would also note that things are not always as disparate as they seem. I'm sure some people at my high school raised an eyebrow when someone generally regarded as a strange, nerdy, and not particularly attractive loner started dating one of the most popular and attractive cheerleaders in school, but if they dug deeper they might have realized that we had a relationship based on a shared love of music and various other interests. So what at first might have seemed lopsided was rather balanced.
It could be that 42Floors has something to offer that Dan finds attractive, even if it's just a steady paycheck that provides the freedom to work on other things. I'll let them sort that out themselves.
I also think it's important to read this whole post. I think they probably don't expect this offer to be taken up...they're using it as link bait. I think they legitimately admire Dan and wanted a way to show that, and figured they could do that while also commenting on their hiring process, benefits, and draw in other interested parties. I'm sure they're also serious about the offer.
I have mixed feelings about link-baity content, but I can see where they're coming from.
> We're courting on all fronts. Contact us at jobs@42floors.com.
If anyone is a little jealous of this offer, hit them up. You never know.
I hope I can get job offers like this one day, so that I can turn them down. Not saying that a company like this isn't awesome (I'm sure it is), but if you're good enough to get hired by them, then you shouldn't be hired by anyone. You should be hiring.
Not that the City isn't nice. It's just a long commute from Fremont.
That's your upper age?
I feel so old right now.
I'm certain he's not saying they won't hire a 33 year old. Doing so would open them up to lawsuits and wouldn't be wise.
But saying "we employ old people; we have a 32 year old" made me laugh. And then feel old.
But again, he didn't say anything like that.
Or does "youthful blondes" = fair haired girls and boys?
I find with exercise and by sticking to a very rigid sleep schedule (I've learned that for me, It's very bad to fight the sleepies to "just get a little more work done"), 6 is generally enough for me personally. This depends on a nice solid sleep though, if something is periodically interrupting my sleep (like a noisy air conditioner or what have you) I can sleep for longer and still not feel terribly rested. I find oversleeping too much also tends to make me groggy. YMMV
Pray tell, how are those companies doing? What are their financials? How many people are in their employ?
Oh, right, I forgot. A "business" in the Valley involves none of the things that it does anywhere else in the world.
I know I was still finding my way in college at that point, cruising by in my classes without much to show for it.
I agree with the sentiment, but in this case it's misplaced.
If you haven't read pg's "Hiring is Obsolete", I suggest you do because it more or less explains why someone like Dan shouldn't take this offer: http://paulgraham.com/hiring.html
For someone in college this type of stunt could be quite intimidating, and mentorship is appealing, but (in general) people will be more willing to help you out when you are doing your own thing than if you are working for someone else.
Also note that it does not mention that he can continue to work on his own company, which (to me) is what appears to make him happy.
Why put your life on hold for someone else when you've already got so much going for you and an entrepreneurial attitude in the first place?
Is that really the message you want to send? "Hey, Almost Everybody! We're not interested in you!"
All the programmers who go to work everyday, do a damn good job, but don't follow it up with a daily blog post, or a screencast, or a brand new Haskell library. Are we not worth considering?
These people would bring masses of skill and experience. Despite the OP's comment above this sort of hiring prioritises younger people who have time to do all the extra-curriculars, not the older developers with families and all sorts of other commitments.
Also, look who didn't actually write wheremyfriends.be but is taking the credit for it? http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2245016
Yes, Mr. Dan 'I didn't actually ship it' Shipper.
Dan, Wesley and I all did wheremyfriends.be -- Wesley was the submitter of the post you linked to, and mentioned both of us in the product description. We worked together on a bunch of apps and over the summer, and Dan returned to school and continued to work on Airtime while Wesley and I just graduated from the latest YC class.
As far as I know, Dan has never misrepresented his work and has extremely high integrity and character.
Anyone who has actually dealt with Dan in person knows that he is a humble, quiet guy who would never seek to misrepresent his work in any way.
I first met Dan shortly after the launch of wheremyfriends.be, and he was effusive in his praise of the work both Wesley and Ajay had done as they collaborated on the project.
We can't compete with Google or Facebook on salary. -> We cannot raise money enough of capital from smart people with money but we think you are stupid to join us (otherwise you will be one of "smart people with money").
We can't compete with being a founder on equity -> We want to be rich ... that is pretty much the only reason why we are doing this.
So the most important thing I have left is my ability to commit to an individual employee's personal development -> You will work min 70 hours a week.
But I feel some points are on the way to being old and cliched (like the terms 'rockstars' and 'ninjas'.) Not just from 42Floors but other recruitment post descriptions.
I'm referring specifically to the perks and 'freedom' the companies promise. ie:
Unlimited Holiday/Vacations days!
Work on anything you want! Make your own projects!
Don't sign anything. Total freedom!
I never worked at any place that offered these perks (I'm not that awesome yet) but do people really take advantage of them? Isn't it kind of weird to offer those perks – what exactly are is the company hiring for then? Doesn't it come off as lack of focus if employees can do whatever they want? (Unless they're in the R&D department, or they can do whatever they want 20% of the time)
It's also like the perk of having access to a game room filled with XBox's. I interviewed at a place where there was an XBox in the center of the work area – how will anyone feel comfortable playing in there, surrounded by others working away. It just feels like a gimmicky perk. Personally, a better perk would be access to a nice bathroom with a shower for those late nights when I need to refresh.
"Doesn't it come off as lack of focus if employees can do whatever they want?"
I know I spend some time hashing something out that is unrelated to my job just because it crossed my mind and it is just too awesome not to work on at the moment. The 20% policy just says, "hey it's ok to do that and why don't you show it to us so we can make even more money off your previously non-work related thoughts".
I have a feeling that people who work at companies with the unlimited policy probably take fewer vacation days than normal folks, just because no one wants to be 'that guy' who abuses the perk.
Anyone have experience with it?
I worked for a company whose policy was to cap vacation payouts when people left. The employee handbook stated that you'd be paid a maximum of 40 hours vacation unless state law at your work location said otherwise. If you had more than 5 days vacation in your bucket, well, tough luck. Luckily I lived/worked in IL at the time I quit that job, and IL forbids this.
When researching that, I noticed there's a disparity among states in terms of how vacation time is treated. Some states treat accrued vacation time as earned compensation that just hasn't yet been paid, and must be paid on termination. Other states treat vacation time as an agreement that you just don't have to come into work and you'll still get paid, and the employer is free to pay out vacation accruals however they like (or not at all).
It seems like by providing no defined accruals of vacation time, you step around the whole "earned yet unpaid compensation" and turn time off into an agreement that you won't come in and they will still pay you.
Not taking vacation is grounds for dismissal, http://not-so-secret-sauce.highgroove.com/topics/vacation-po...
This portion of the 1-on-1 is a time to vent about anything and everything no matter how small or seemingly insignificant. Don't like the flavor of free yogurt? Bring it up. Desirous of different snacks? Mention it. Feeling overwhelmed or burnt out? Say so.
All of the what sucks from all developers is compiled into one email and sent out along with action items on each issue is being addressed. Being conscious of what is less than ideal on all levels helps us improve our working environment and our processes.
We've set two large goals at our company, developer happiness and client happiness. Everyone's job is to fulfill those two goals and part of being happy is not being burnt out!
By making vacation mandatory, but with no set limits, and saying you can literally be fired we're signaling to each other the relative importance of being aware of our limits and addressing the importance of moderation.
Someone working 60 hours a week is indicative of a severe problem in process, planning, or execution. The same applies for someone going six months without a day off.
Does that make sense?
Think of it this way. If you tell people they can take 10 weeks of vacation they will feel they might take 10 weeks of vacation. If you say "unlimited", well it really doesn't mean unlimited. It forces you to think what is reasonable in your own mind by example of others in the company, what they are taking.
Salary employees by definition can take time off, say, for a Dr.'s appointment or really anything (in a traditional company at least) as long as they get their work done. The company doesn't say "you can take off 5 days for x" because then everybody would schedule that time in. Better to leave it an unknown. Most will never hit the max.
Many things work this way. When you go to a vacation resort they might have sailboats you can take out. They don't tell you how many times you can take out the sailboat. That prevents people from feeling they are justified in taking the boat out 5 times per day instead of the 1 or maybe two they might if there is no stated limit.
If my name were Jason Freedman, I couldn't bring myself to name a company "42Floors", since a guy name Jason Fried has already made "37signals" a household name.
We endeavour to hire talented staff so it's only natural that they have had other offers. From our point of view we have never held the cards really.
I suppose that is why you have to offer health policy's, pensions etc, to sweeten the deal.
Not sure if this was intentional ;)
It looks suspiciously like they burned through a lot of money developing the initial site and now are looking for a cheap way to continue development. Going after someone still in college is one way to do that I guess.
Anyway, maybe I'm wrong, and they're working on some new super-secret v2 that will blow everything out of the water.
We can't compete with being a founder on equity.
Let's assume a pretty optimal funding scenario: YC took 6%, and the next 400k cost them 9%. Figure the employee stock pool is somewhere around 5%, leaving 80% to split between the two cofounders.
Dan may be awesome, but I don't really see a spare 10% or 20% in there for an employee. Dan may be awesome and talented, but you don't bring in people post-funding at that kind of equity stake, unless they've got some insane track record (and rolodex) that justifies it, and even then, getting the board to greenlight things would be a tough sell.
There's only so much room in the CAP table to hand out equity to employees.
What they can offer, and what is a big deal, is giving Dan the freedom to maximize his own potential, and to get paid for it.
That's not a small offer, and even with the small mountain of opportunity I have on the table right now, I would think very deeply about working at 42Floors if they approached me like this.
It's classy, and honest. I like that.
But if "Dan" (insert any developer here) gets them to their overall goal (exit?) than why shouldn't he get a piece of the pie.
You can have a lot of flexibility in hiring if you can offer your employees what they want, and that's not always money.
What do you personally consider reasonable?
As in, our stuff must be wonderful, we only hire the best.
But really, having a plan that requires that everyone be an Einstein is somewhat limited - a more robust organization is one that can accommodate & make maximum use of what skills an individual has. Obviously this has its limits, but making a condition of success that everyone has to be a potential Nobel Prize winning renaissance man is a bit limiting as well.
One alternative to this is the strategy explained by Lieutenant Keefer in the "The Caine Mutiny": "The Navy is a master plan designed by geniuses for execution by idiots"
If you can set something like that up, you are golden, the supply of idiots being much more plentiful and cheap than geniuses.
what exactly is in it for him besides ego stroking?