Hacker News Reader

Comment by houseatrielah | Hacker News Reader

CNBC did a better job than this low-density article.

Why Hertz’s Bet On Tesla Isn’t Paying Off In The U.S. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UfbkvUXTV_I

"pricing troubles, skyrocketing repair costs and low resale value"... They turn their fleet over every 2-years or so, so resale value is important, and with prices of new EVs coming down, the resale value will be significantly lower than a new model.

View on HN

But I was told EV's would be much more reliable and cheaper to repair?

YMMV

Hertz says conventional maintenance is lower cost on EVs compared to similar ICE cars.

Granted they're dumping the fleet with degraded battery packs before doing the 15k+ replacement, sure.

Where does this myth come from? Looks it's about 10% battery degradation after 200K miles. Tesla is rating their batteries for 300K to 500K miles.

Most American company ICE cars are scrapped by then. Not to mention all the ICE related maintenance costs over that time like oil changes, transmission fluid, timing belts, hoses, etc. etc.

You can look at 6 to 10 year Model S cars.

It's not a myth at all, and Tesla's "rating" is a lie. Look at data on Prius battery packs and what Toyota rates them for(100-150k). I understand I'm comparing a hybrid to an EV, but there is much more data and I actually trust Toyota.

Buying an EV with 100k miles and the original battery pack for 20k is a bad idea.

Lithium-ion battery lifetimes are based on charge-discharge cycles.

The Prius battery is far smaller (about 5-10x smaller) than a Tesla battery, so it is cycling charge / discharge far more often.

So you'd expect the same quality battery to last 5-10x less miles in a Prius than a Tesla driving the same distance. It's likely that Tesla's investment in battery quality and active temperature controls mean the Tesla battery is also treated better and higher quality.

Topping that battery up with a generator in the Prius complicates things, both reducing kWh used per mile (some from generator) but also allowing a discharge - recharge cycle to occur multiple times in the same trip.

> I understand I'm comparing a hybrid to an EV

I don't think you do. Prius's have only recently started using lithium ion batteries, for one. And they cycle the small battery a lot faster than a BEV. Everything we've learned from hybrids suggests BEVs will get hundreds of thousands of miles from the battery (and so far, from the cars which haven driven that far, this has proven correct).

There are multiple sites that track real-life Tesla battery degradation. It averages at 12% after 200k miles: https://insideevs.com/news/664106/tesla-battery-capacity-deg...

I have a Tesla, and I use it in the worst possible way for the battery: road trips with deep discharges and frequent 100% fast charges. I'm at 100k miles, and it degraded by 9%.

> Where does this myth come from?

Politics.

The problem is the degradation is fastest when it's brand new.

Sure, but when the overall degradation is pretty minimal, this doesn't matter terribly much. I'm at 96.5% rated capacity after 12K miles. That's pretty typical. I should be down near 90-93% capacity at 100K miles. I probably won't keep this car long enough to get down to 80%. At that point I -might- consider replacing the battery, but given how old the car will be, it's not too likely. The only way the battery ever gets replaced in this car is if it fails altogether.

Right now if I had to pay that out of pocket it would be more than a new engine, but not by a huge amount. By the time I don't have a battery warranty, the cost will most likely be in line with a used engine for a similar ICE car.

Problem how? That sounds like the opposite of a problem to me. Everyone is used to a car massively dropping in value immediately after purchase. If the battery drops right away and then that slows down a lot, you won't need a replacement for a very long time.

Tesla's repair and spare parts model?

It generally is, but that could be the difference between owning one and running a fleet. They are low maintenance and rarely require repairs, but when they do, they can be awfully costly. That could result in a low median cost but higher mean cost. Owning 20k means you are going to have to deal with that average, but an individual owner probably lucks out with the median cost.

Can confirm. For a fleet owner, cost to repair vehicle is generally modeled as an [1] exponentially distributed rv, which has a positive skew, so [2] mean > median.

[1] https://math.stackexchange.com/questions/187618/finding-comb...

[2] https://i.stack.imgur.com/2w6it.png

Personal ownership, typically yes. Rental cars are a different beast, with the amount of miles and abuse they receive. When I had a gas car on Turo, I had to deal with all kinds of weirdness that never happened when I drove the same car.

Care to share your 3 top wildest?

And they tend to be, along with needing less maintenance.

Tesla, however, has a ludicrous parts system compared to any traditional car company, for parts that have absolutely nothing to do with the fact that the car is using an electric powertrain. Ask for the cost of a new front bumper... it's not pretty.

And as far as fender bender risk goes, it also doesn't help that a Tesla is, in practice, far more powerful at low speeds than the typical car the renter is used to. Pressed the gas pedal when you meant to brake? You'll be in for a surprise. They are also probably unaccustomed to the car's behavior when you lift the gas pedal completely: Being able to do one pedal driving is great if you know the car, but probably a big surprise for someone renting.

> They are also probably unaccustomed to the car's behavior when you lift the gas pedal completely

It's been at least 4 years since I drove an EV so I don't remember what they do. I expect the car to slow down and eventually come to a halt. I remember that I wasn't surprised by anything in particular so it's probably what it did. What do Teslas do?

There are many EV noobs who haven't driven yet, and their first try might be a rent car.

> What do Teslas do?

Teslas do aggressive regen braking when you lift your foot. And it's not possible to disable that behavior, unlike other EVs.

So-called single pedal driving isn't very familiar to most drivers, making it unsuitable for rentals where users would prefer not having a learning curve.

Also if you ask the community how to disable regen braking you'll be told that you're driving it wrong, see:

https://www.reddit.com/r/TeslaModelY/comments/zswnhi/anyone_...

https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/s3xy-buttons-regener...

https://www.reddit.com/r/TeslaModelY/comments/14r90q6/disabl...

So it's like driving a high downforce racing car: you lift and the aero drag brakes the car more powerfully than a normal car does when braking with the pedal. Definitely not something people are used to.

Does that actually disable regenerative braking? If so, that's definitely driving it wrong, though it would be Tesla's fault for not having a brake pedal regen option.

How strong is regent braking compared to engine braking in a manual? Does it feel like just staying in the same gear? Downshifting one?

Much stronger than even downshifting imho.

> with prices of new EVs coming down

Prices of new Teslas coming down. This is incredibly specific to Hertz's bet on Teslas.

Are other brand EVs selling at high prices? Or are they sitting on lots at high prices?

For a resale impact it doesn't matter much if the price is low or high, it matters if the price drops.

> a resale impact it doesn't matter much if the price is low or high

If you're actually trying to sell them, it does. If you're marking your assets on a balance sheet, the "price" matters more than the price.

If Tesla lowers their prices, other EVs manufacturers are forced to do the same to remain competitive.

https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/tesla-...

New Mercedes-Benz EQ models can be easily had for 20-30% off MSRP. Yes, this is partially due to MB setting the MSRP unrealistically high, but it’s indicative of the broader market for EVs right now.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com