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Comment by bossyTeacher | Hacker News Reader

I wonder what does this mean for the "Everyone can code" movement (bootcamps, initiatives within Google and the like, government funding). They keep saying that you can get a high paying job if you do a 9 month course. When the best of the field are getting laid off, I wonder how long will the "Everyone can code" movement survive

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That concept doesn't hold water. If everyone can code, it won't be a high paying skill. And soon, it will really be true that everyone can code. Schools are teaching computational thought as early as kindergarten, so the next generation is growing up with coding being a basic literacy skill.

Of course, knowing how to code and being good at creating software are two different things. Just like knowing how to write and being able to succeed as a novelist are two different things.

But that is also why the "best of the field" get laid off - why pay FAANG salaries to get the best, when entry/mid-level salaries to get "good enough" still meets business needs?

I know. But it has been parrotted in the last decade even by the (usually) smart folks of HN

I think about it this way -- when I was a kid, being able to navigate a command prompt (DOS!) put you in a category way ahead of most adults using computers every day.

Of course, normal users use the terminal as much now as they do, then, but mostly because "they don't ever have to"[0], but yet they're able to accomplish things that might have been relegated to the category of "computer programming" just a decade ago.

Programming software is just another way of using a computer in a more advanced manner than mere mortals. Programming gets simpler, more enter the field, junior developers become more powerful and the difference between the expert and the novice increases or decreases depending on which direction you look at it from.

In 1986, my Dad, a non-programmer, and a "power user" but not expert in PCs, used Lotus 1-2-3 to design an invoicing and accounting tool that had a UI, forms, printed formatted output and tracked everything in a database-like manner in a file. I called him a non-programmer, but was he?

[0] When your PC boots into a `C>`, you better know what to type to get it to do something other than that.

I keep hearing that schools are teaching 'computational thought' and programming, but then I also hear that kids can't do math at anywhere near the expected level, can't read at their expected level, and have zero attention span. Either someone is lying or very wrong.

They’re probably different kids we’re talking about. My personal perception is that the gap of basic reading/math skills between the top 10% and the bottom 90% is widening.

Why ? I’d say parental (real, no phone) presence in the kids life / education.

For sure the top kids are doing alright, and sure those kids are taking some programming as well. I suppose they should just modify most articles by saying 'Top students' and stop implying that the school system that can't teach kids how to subtract fractions is going to teach programming as well to the average kid.

I'd say the modern obsession with dating your equal is having the unintended consequence of creating an academic elite

Did people back in the days date people that were far below their social group (economic and education wise)? I highly doubt it

You're right that it's not new. But now that women are getting tons of degrees for degrees sake, without even taking into account the school, it's creating pressure on men to do the same.

I have an BS in Mechanical Engineering from Berkeley, and I've had women from no name schools with a masters in marketing try to talk down my education.

Anecdata but a lot of kids and young adults around me also seemingly struggle with use of a full computing environment; they’re much more used to something like iPad OS.

I don’t really buy that the next generation is going to be more computer literate, I’ve been hearing that meme for a long time now and I just don’t see it.

My 17-year-old "zoomer" sister is unsure about what a browser is. She believes you need a Google app to access the internet. My millennial sisters aren't very proficient with computers. They mostly use Office and a browser. Things like VPNs might confuse them. Are my sisters a rare exception? Who knows? I know other female and male millennials with non-software developer jobs who barely know how to use a computer.

Yep, I tried to persuade my "zoomer" sister to learn how to program, but she declined. :( She is simply not interested.

>But that is also why the "best of the field" get laid off - why pay FAANG salaries to get the best, when entry/mid-level salaries to get "good enough" still meets business needs?

Maybe a better chant for town hall meetings would be "We're number 2! We're number 2!"...

> so the next generation is growing up with coding being a basic literacy skill.

meanwhile gen z have no concept of file browsers or the command line, they've only ever dealt in apps.

We've been having a phenomenon for years: engineers reported that it was hard to find a good job, while companies reported that they couldn't find good engineers. So, it may be that everyone can learn to code, but not everyone can survive the grind of the industry.

Recently the only people who have been saying that it’s easy to become a programmer in a few months are the ones selling you the way to get there.

THIS

> only people who have been saying that it’s easy to become a programmer in a few months are the ones selling you the way to get there

Hasn't this group of people always comprised like 90% of the Everyone Can Code group?

> They keep saying that you can get a high paying job if you do a 9 month course.

It's good if this way of thinking dies. It does a disservice to those taking the course, and it does a disservice to the industry.

"High Paying Job" simply means more than minimum wage. There are a lot of Americans for which $40K to $50K income would be considered good. $60K to $70K would be considered great.

Erm, who says the folks being laid off are the "best of the field?"

Best of the field was an exaggeration but I just meant very experienced devs. For newbie devs, it is the same. People that either in paper, in practice or both are better than your average $NONAME company dev. To get a job at FAANG, you need to be a good programmer. The folks at FAANGs aren't regular devs. And they are being laid off.

Some are, some aren't. The decisions about who to lay off are not generally connected to how good they are.

Supposedly Google only hires the best of the best. Now it appears they hired a lot of mediocrity? So much for their lauded hiring process.

I've posted previously that I knew someone that went to one of the most joke low level public schools around (CSU East Bay - I audited a few classes with them even), and they were so goofy you had to help the through understanding the movie plot of basic movies even. They were fun to hang out with, but honestly pretty goofy. They were also a bit lazy, never really learning much about their field.

They were hired as a product manager by Google, based on their years of being a scrum master or whatever at a few other bay companies.

"Fun to hang out with" takes you further than you think. If the person is also attractive then he has a giant halo effect going for him

It was a woman actually, so 10x that.

Oh but they will get high pay compared to their bartending job.

will they? The job market is full of high quality experienced devs. I don't see why any company would hire for an inexperienced dev when they can get an experienced one for cheap. It's like buying Walmart cheese for $5 when you can get high end cheese for $10. No brainer

Oh wow, comparing cheese to developers is a pretty poor analogy.

Is it? Are you saying cheese is too good to be compared to us? I knew it.

It's with respect to the smell

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