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Comment by drbytes | Hacker News Reader

That video finally convinced me to install mini splits. It has turned out to be a great choice as it has cut my propane use in half.

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Mini splits are very cool in concept, but somewhat problematic in practice. Many are built very substandard, and within a few years getting parts or repairs is often impossible.

I wish that weren't the case.

Relatedly, we had one of ours break in a thunderstorm in Austin. We had a contract w/ a local place for maintenance and quick repairs. They quoted us 2.5k to fix it, then 4.8k to replace it. We shopped around and had a brand new unit purchased and installed from a different company for 2k flat, 3 days later. I share this often because I am still shocked at how disparate the quotes were, esp. from a "reputable" company we had an existing relationship with, and feel many people are taken advantage of in these situations when all you really need to do is call around. I also suspect as their popularity increases (I assume) the repairs and parts will perhaps become cheaper and more available.

(Our overall experience with them has been very positive).

This has been my experience with nearly every utility-related service I have ever needed - same with people in my social circle . Plumbing, electric, chimney, appliances, etc. all do this. Even with the rise of DIY, the demand for these services are still high. I live in a suburban neighborhood flooded with work vans for electricians and such, so you'd think the high competition would keep prices low. You'd think, but that definitely wasn't the case when I called around for estimates, and they were all booked out days to weeks. Crazy

I think the work is spiky so the quotes are inversely related to how busy the contractor is at that moment (for small shops). Also, there is the supply/demand of the people doing the actual work who are often not employees and may be available or not for that project in that neighborhood.

And then there's the availability of the part/unit which drives price.

There's also a weird consolidation going on in what are traditionally mom-and-pop style "trade" industries. E.g., a significant portion of the individual contractor Co. vans you see driving around could be owned (or at least partially owned) by the same private equity outfit. Thus, prices and supply can be "managed" to the detriment of the consumer. I think it will be a few years or possibly a decade before state/local/federal governments catch on to what is happening here.

Presumably the bid and level of busy-ness are positively correlated rather than inverse/negatively correlated.

Because for decades parents have told their children to become lawyers, doctors or if everything fails go into IT.

Physical work is underappreciated.

I think of them as throwaway. Get a good install, run them until a mechanical part fails, then replace with new.

It’s not how it “should be”, but that’s how the economics have shaken out. Paying a tech windshield time and working time (probably twice) and finding/waiting on the proprietary parts is a losing game. If it works 30 days, it’s probably going to work 8-12 years.

My buddy just installed a dc hybrid system and it’s been pretty much amazing. He’s in a warm climate with lots of sun though, but the idea of plugging panels directly into solar panels on hot days makes so much sense.

Are you in a cold climate? My biggest concern is installing splits in very cold mountain climates (my use case).

The lowest I've seen for mini splits is -30 C in heating mode. No idea about big installations

P.S. previous comment with example specs: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38266032

What a kind and helpful comment. Thank you!

Just installed mini-splits this autumn in the Seattle area and am living my first cold days now. What I found out is that insulation is very important. Parts of our house has very poor insulation. Coolth escapes in particularly from the floor. Our house is over a 100 years old with insulation retrofits from the 70s. I have a friend in the same area which has a new house with mini-split and modern insulation and hers works amazingly. We will definitely be working on retrofitting the rest of the house with proper insulation next summer.

Living in a cold mountain climate you probably have a pretty decent insulation.

Insulation is very important! I live near Portland in a fairly new construction and found my attic insulation is the bare minimum, currently planning to blow-in more soon. After running the numbers, between federal credits and heating savings it'll pay for itself within 2-3 years.

Could I ask who you used / what they charged? I got several estimates in 2021 and they were all pretty wildly high despite a very simple requested configuration. I'm curious to know if the market cooled (no pun intended) since then or if prices are just strictly increasing.

Sorry, my partner is a carpenter and did a lot of the work her self. She did get an HVAC expert to help with the installation but the price included some bilateral favors, friend discounts, etc, etc. So not only is the price hard to figure out, it is also not gonna be representative outside of our situation.

FWIW, Mini splits are very DIY'able. I was surprised to learn they don't cost much more than an air conditioner. In 2021, I bought and installed a 12k BTU for around $850. HVAC companies seem to charge an arm and a leg - my neighbor put a 2-head unit and I think they paid around 6k.

What brand did you install? MrCool diy seemed the easiest to DIY but my 2 zone install came to about 6k. Surprised to hear a condenser and air handler together could be $850.

Pioneer. I just installed a 2 head and it was about $2000 in total. They come pre-charged but require more work. You have to cut/flare the lineset and vacuum the lines.

The thing I don't like about MrCool is that you can't cut the lineset and have to coil the extra which is a bit janky. Also they have a considerable markup over other DIY.

I did research the DIY kits, though my biggest worry is that down the line I won't be able to find companies willing to touch it if it needs servicing.

Properly installed, there's not much to service. Watch a few Youtube videos on what goes wrong with heat pumps, and you'll learn that proper site prep is critical. ie the units must be level so the bearings won't wear prematurely.

I got several quotes in the Seattle area this past summer. The cheapest was 18k, the most expensive was 34k. These were for 3-4 zone installs.

I went with mrcooldiy and did it myself for about $7k.

> Coolth escapes in particularly from the floor.

Sorry, could you try that again? I cannot figure out what you meant.

Missed a comma.

Coolth escapes in, particularly from the floor

Coolth is the antonym of warmth.

Was the insulation being important realization related to the mini split install? Curious why that would be more noticeable with mini splits vs other forms of heat.

Capacity. Heat pumps are typically lower capacity (in BTU/hr delivered) than a fuel burning appliance and that capacity drops with very cold outside temps.

Sounds likely, however this is also my first winter—and my first cold sprout—with them, as such I’m learning which temperature to set it at etc. With our gas stove we usually set it higher on cold days, I guess with heat pumps we need to do that even more so.

Inverter drive heat pumps do well in a continuous and lower output situation, so the conventional wisdom (from gas fueled appliances, often with only 1 or 2 stage burners) to do a nighttime setback for economy is less useful economically. Set back for nighttime comfort if you want/must, but not (much) for economy.

You would still need a couple backups, standard plug in heaters and some kind of wood stove or furnace.

We just used a big cheap battery as a backup and the system is grid tied for horrible storms in winter and whatnot.

Everything was off the shelf — the new systems are crazy better than just a few years ago.

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