Comment by charred_patina | Hacker News Reader

Comment by charred_patina | Hacker News Reader

Parent Full thread

I am unable to reply to your comment in the other chain (ok for some reason it let me comment now)

> Deflect, much? I can call out a group of cartoonishly villainous terrorists without having to condone any other behavior.

I am not deflecting, my point has been consistent across the whole thread. All of the power players in the region are bad people. However, you have to come to the table with them as they are. It's hubris to just think because the Houthis are bad guys then we don't have to take them seriously. Obviously the best way to stop these attacks is to force Israel to ceasefire (it's also the moral option), but many people wouldn't want to capitulate to pressure from "terrorists".

> The attacks coincide in time, yes. But many opportunistic things coincide. That is part of the very definition of opportunistic attacks, no? You can believe their stated reasons, but then how can you not also believe their stated global intentions?

I don't buy their PR hook line and sinker. But the reasonable thing to do here is open a line of communication and negotiate with them. Call for a ceasefire, get ships passing back through the Red Sea, and figure out how to solve this all somewhat peacefully.

> I get that you don't like Israel. I don't know why I would necessarily want to change your mind there, all told. I can say you should not let that drive you to such allies as terrorists that attack trade ships.

My point throughout this whole thread has not been to say Israel is uniquely evil or the Houthis are good, but that people in the west have been conditioned to look at this conflict without any nuance, which is antithetical to good policy, or even just understanding the situation.

I mean for christ sake we still have sanctions on Cuba 60 years later. So many US foreign policy moves are motivated by ideology or some moral judgement, rather than actual strategy or humanitarian ideals.

I really have tried to use fairly neutral language for all of my posts in this thread, I don't know why people have interpreted this as me defending the Houthis. I take it as an example of the fact that actually being truly neutral in an analysis is viewed as having non-neutral stance, because the default assumption in western nations is that the US hegemony is good and everyone loves it 24/7.

You literally brought Israel into this discussion with the sole purpose to undermine a criticism of a group that is calling for the death of others. That is a deflection.

Charity to it, if you are solely trying to point out that all participants are evil over there, what is your proposed frame of action? Is the claim that they are all equally villainous and evil?

I confess having cognitive dissonance in how you can both think they are all bad people, and that we should take a "reasonable" path to discussing with them. Their actions have shown that they are willing to attack ships outside of their own parameters in the region. Combined with their other, again visually stated, intentions, I don't see what you think to accomplish with discussions.

And again, bringing up other questionable choices by the US is a dog whistle to get support against "Western" powers. It is a deflection because it does not build up any support for the groups there, it is only a way to undermine other discourse.

> You literally brought Israel into this discussion with the sole purpose to undermine a criticism of a group that is calling for the death of others. That is a deflection.

I brought it up to show that your argument is one-sided and doesn't take into account the nuance of the situation. One of my main points has been that US news media's whitewashing of Israel is the main reasons that the OP I replied to was unable to understand why the Houthis had broad support in the Islamic world. However, if you look at the situation objectively (not through US-centric lens) it becomes really obvious what's happening.

The problem is that we hyper focus on the evil of our enemies, and don't focus on the evil of our allies and our own country. So it's not possible to look at the situation with a pro-Israel/pro-US pov and understand it.

> Charity to it, if you are solely trying to point out that all participants are evil over there, what is your proposed frame of action? Is the claim that they are all equally villainous and evil?

USA open a line of communication with Houthis (directly or via China). USA and UN declare the bombing of Gaza as a genocide. USA/UN Force Israel to stop genocide either through threat of sanctions, or enforce a no-fly zone and shoot down a plane if necessary. Get Netanyahu out and back his more liberal opposition. Make peace with the Houthis and try to legitimize their power, while imposing conditions of liberalization on them. Deconstruct the apartheid/surveillance state Israel has set up through reforms. People argue about 2-state vs 1-state, I personally believe a 1-state could work but I am not informed enough to say. Lastly, try Netanyahu + his cabinet and Hamas as war criminals so that there is accountability and justice.

All the players that I just mentioned, I truly believe them to be forces for evil. Why? Because the plan I proposed won't happen. It would be the most reasonable and morally just course of action, but because all of these people are operating ideologically, they won't do it. If they all sat down and brokered out a peace deal then I would consider that to be a "good" act, even if their overwhelming actions are still mostly evil.

> I confess having cognitive dissonance in how you can both think they are all bad people, and that we should take a "reasonable" path to discussing with them.

Because I think all countries are evil. I think the state monopoly on violence is wrong. However in the real world you have to play the hand you are dealt. I think the US (evil) using its power to negotiate a ceasefire with Israel (evil) to get the Houthis (evil) to stop, is the most moral action that can be taken right now.

> And again, bringing up other questionable choices by the US is a dog whistle to get support against "Western" powers. It is a deflection because it does not build up any support for the groups there, it is only a way to undermine other discourse.

I am not sure you fully understand my pov. I don't think Iran is better than the US or vice versa. I think they are all evil. However in this circumstance the US is the one with the power to stop a genocide. The US could literally force Netanyahu out TODAY, if the political will was there. There would still be other problems in the region of course.

The main point I want to make is that it is hypocritical and not productive to just come out and say "the Houthis are doing this because they are bad and evil". It completely obscures the courses of action the US should take to resolve this crisis.

I just can't see a coherent line of discussion here. What I see is a set line of conclusions that you want to support. Few of which really directly apply to the claims of this thread.

Worse, even if your stance is predicated on all actors in the area being evil, there is a certain level you have to ignore to not see the cartoonish quality of "Death to America" and to equivocate them with others in the area is borderline insulting.

And again, if you can't bring positive reasons to support one group, decrying "look at how evil everyone else is" is a deflection. You are refusing to actually engage with the declared evil intentions of one, by forcing a discussion on implied evil intentions of others.

> I just can't see a coherent line of discussion here. What I see is a set line of conclusions that you want to support. Few of which really directly apply to the claims of this thread.

I spelled out for you what I would consider to be the best course of action for all parties. I'm not really sure what else I can do.

> Worse, even if your stance is predicated on all actors in the area being evil, there is a certain level you have to ignore to not see the cartoonish quality of "Death to America"

I don't have any issue with someone chanting "Death to America". In some parts of the world I can understand that level of hatred for the USA. I totally think their antisemitism is abhorrent however. To quote Col. Kurtz:

"We train young men to drop fire on people. But their commanders won't allow them to write "f**" on their airplanes because it's obscene!"

We aid Saudi Arabia dropping bombs on them from the sky, I can't be too offended when their slogan is "death to the USA".

> to equivocate them with others in the area is borderline insulting.

Qatar has a population made up of 80% slaves. Israel was founded on ethnic displacement and is an apartheid state with no human rights, and is actively doing a genocide right now. The extremist elements in Israel are actively in power. I consider them to be the Jewish equivalent of US white nationalists. I don't think I need to list out the human rights violations of every country in order to make the point that all states are immoral.

> And again, if you can't bring positive reasons to support one group, decrying "look at how evil everyone else is" is a deflection.

I don't support groups, I support moral actions (Not that my opinion matters in the great scheme of things), but the course of action should not be about supporting the team that you think is less bad, but exploiting the relationships between the immoral states to achieve the least violent and most just outcome.

> You are refusing to actually engage with the declared evil intentions of one, by forcing a discussion on implied evil intentions of others.

The evil intentions of USA and Israel are not implied, they are stated and then acted on. You can listen to Netanyahu directly state his plans to ethnically cleanse Gaza under the protection of the US. You can also hear Joe Biden verbatim say "if there was no Israel in the middle east we would have to invent one. Why? Because it is in our own naked self interest."

https://theconversation.com/biden-says-the-u-s-would-have-to...

I think genocide and the funding of a genocide are evil. I also think Islamic terrorism is evil. However there is a path forward that involves all of the players communicating with each other to minimize bloodshed and maximize justice.

My intention has not been to apply whataboutisms to the Houthis, but to make the point that you have to be realistic and approach situations as they are, not as you wish they were. In my opinion, under this framework, the US will need to negotiate with the Houthis and stop Israel's genocide if they want to solve this problem in the best way possible.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com