"Dutch engineer carried out Iranian nuclear sabotage": VK | Hacker News Reader

"Dutch engineer carried out Iranian nuclear sabotage": VK

dutchnews.nl

49 pointssjmulder67 comments

Aside: VK = de Volkskrant.

I thought the headline was saying the report was from VK, as in VKontakte, the Russian social media site, implying an additional level of intrigue.

same. a lot more users than the Dutch media

for the non-Russian speakers, the v in VK means 'in' so VKontacte is basically InContact.

This is the original piece in Dutch: https://www.volkskrant.nl/kijkverder/v/2024/sabotage-in-iran...

One of the things it mentions is the bike crash, there was an investigation but they couldn't find proof for it being anything other than an accident.

> One of the things it mentions is the bike crash, there was an investigation but they couldn't find proof for it being anything other than an accident.

This is one of those things that are unknowable by the general public. It may have genuinely been an accident, but it may also have been an assassination. In both cases it is possible, even likely and expected, that the official account be the same.

A little potential snag in the story, though: "Nothing points to foul play, the Volkskrant said after speaking with people at the crash scene. Though, an anonymous MIVD employee told the newspaper that Van Sabben “paid a high price”" [1]. Perhaps that's there in the original piece you linked to: "‘Hij heeft een hoge prijs betaald’, klonk het bij de MIVD."

[1] https://nltimes.nl/2024/01/08/dutch-man-sabotaged-iranian-nu...

If it was assasination, who did it as it happened so soon afterwards? I would assume that it took long time for Iran to find out the Stuxnet.

Obvious cause could be his "employers" getting rid of a toxic asset.

Indeed. If it was an assassination, it was from a "friendly" agency covering their tracks to avoid him spilling the beans.

Nice to see that European intelligence services are still capable of something. The article mentioned the government didn't know - should they have known? Not sure what the law on that in Netherlands is. From what I read, Netherland's special services did know, it wasn't him working privately with US and Israel.

Capable of evil?

I don’t think fucking over Irans nuclear bomb program counts as “evil”.

Unless you are the Iranian state I guess.

Why is it okay to attack Iran? Unless in a state of war, it seems just as “not-evil” to do this to the US or UK, no?

It also hit much wider than just Iran's centrifuges.

Infected computers by country:

Iran 58.9%

Indonesia 18.2%

India 8.3%

Azerbaijan 2.6%

United States 1.6%

Pakistan 1.3%

Other countries 9.2%

> Why is it okay to attack Iran? Unless in a state of war, it seems just as “not-evil” to do this to the US or UK, no?

Iran funds, plans and executes terrorist attacks around the world, including Europe and the United States (via proxy organizations, and it also mostly fails, which is nice).

Iran supplies Russia with drones for its war with Ukraine (obviously this is after Stuxnet, but just pointing out they are aligned with Russia/China against the West).

Iran openly calls for the destruction of the United States and Israel (can you guess where its future nuclear weapons will be pointed at?).

How is it not okay for the United States and Israel to sabotage their nuclear program? How is it equivalent to sabotaging the UK?

> Iran openly calls for the destruction of the United States and Israel (can you guess where its future nuclear weapons will be pointed at?).

How does Iran call for destruction of US? And why?

That's semantics. The US does much much worse things, but because the US or the EU brand something "terrorist" then those that support it in one way or another are evil?

How many have Iran killed? The war on terror alone have caused more than 500.000 deaths. Sure you can say Iran is evil, but nothing you said makes them an okay target more than the US, UK, EU, etc.

"Irans nuclear bomb program"

Sounds like Murican propaganda to me.

Whats next? Russia's mass murder Nuclear program?

I agree, this is too much.

We should form a rainbow-color coalition, invade on your premise, wage an unwinnable war for 20 years, and then ditch everything when it's apparent Western values are not welcomed by the local guerrilla.

European intelligence services are definitely capable, and the Dutch AIVD is highly regarded for its cyber capabilities.

In a proper functioning democracy at least the prime minister should know what intelligence services are up to. As those politicians are ultimately responsible. It’s not that intelligence services are independent lawless sub-states.

, except for in reality.

> should they have known

Yes, it could have been considered an act of war, and have caused major issues. There's a parliamentary commission that's responsible for controlling the Dutch intelligence services, consisting out of the leaders of the 5 biggest parties in parliament. The fact that they weren't informed is a scandal.

> Nice to see that European intelligence services are still capable of something

I don't think the AIVD has been criticized for being ineffective, if anything the other way around.

> I don't think the AIVD has been criticized for being ineffective, if anything the other way around.

reputation, carefully curated, is that they're small but can punch above their weight.

they watched the Russians hack the US Democrats in real time, for example. that's how we know Guccifer was the Russians -- Dutch intel was already on those systems. Woulda been nice if they stopped them, but you don't become an APT by intervening constantly or blowing 0-days willy-nilly, and the attribution was useful enough.

The AIVD nor the spy did know the specifics of the operation, e.g. that the waterpumps were carrying Stuxnet. Sources in the AIVD said that they felt used by the CIA.

Better source: https://www.volkskrant.nl/nieuws-achtergrond/politiek-ontste...

Yes, multiple levels of governance were unaware of these actions, including the prime minister (a covert action that could count as a casus belli might be something to mention to the PM) and the committee where the leading representatives are briefed on all matters intelligence ('commissie stiekem'). How it went down, both the executive and legislative branch of government were in the dark. That's way more trust than the system is supposed to give the spooks.

A former head of the intelligence department is quoted that not briefing the PM is more or less default ("sweeping his sidewalk"), which is an insult to democracy. Not that I cannot see the rationale for this action, but it all falls under the broad perversions of democracy and justice that our former-PM (Rutte) has willfully accepted.

I think stuxnet was made famous (at least in my circles) by this quora post: https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-most-sophisticated-piece-o...

I would love to read a rundown that is not so hyperbolic/dumbed down ("most sophisticated software in history" for some multiple-0-day worm, also supplying digital signatures of large manufacturers must be common practice for agencies, etc).

The description looks a bit hyperbolic indeed. This one (ok, much more recent) looks very sophisticated as well ;) https://securelist.com/trng-2023/

"Van Sabben, a civil engineer by profession, died in a motorbike crash near his home in Dubai two years later."

Now that's... unfortunate...

It's 2 weeks later

Oh... that's even more unfortunate...

What would have been his motivation to assist with this operation ?

Making good on the Dutch delivering nuclear plans to Pakistan in the 1970 through 1980's?

https://www.ft.com/content/be09ba7c-b0d8-45e4-aff8-bf01b4aa5...

Another discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38909220

"Van Sabben, a civil engineer by profession, died in a motorbike crash near his home in Dubai two years later."

This is a glorious story for the conspiracy theorists!

Special services killing agents of other special services is not a conspiracy theory.

Special services killing agents (or assets) of their own special services is not a conspiracy theory.

This is not a conspiracy at all. It's common for such people to die in "accidents", or simply found dead.

An MI6 agent found dead in his home, "neatly packed" [0].

KGB has a special division for tailored assassinations [1].

[0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Gareth_Williams

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poison_laboratory_of_the_Sovie...

> His naked, decomposing remains were found in the bath of the main bedroom's en-suite bathroom, inside a red bag that was padlocked from the outside, with the keys inside the bag.

> A subsequent Metropolitan Police re-investigation concluded that Williams's death was "probably an accident".

Can't make this up...

I think the SVR probably did it, but you'd be remiss to ignore the facts that he had a documented interest in bondage and self bondage, had previously had to get help from his landlord after tying himself to a bed, and that a key to the padlock was found inside the bag with him. It was a weird case.

Well I guess it was an accident insofar as it was not planned by Mr. Williams.

Dubai's drivers are some of the most dangerous in the world. It's quite normal to see a Ferrari and Maserati pull up at an intersection, then take off on a drag race like they are in a Fast & Furious movie.

While the driving in general is pretty bad, the super car example is partially because there are a lot of companies that rent out super cars by the day/hour.

The guys you see red-lining a blue Lamborghini on Sheikh Zayed/JBR, with a selfie stick and two friends squashed into the back (sunglasses on at night of course), are almost always renters.

So like the US but with fewer beers and trucks?

In the original article [0] (in Dutch), it says:

> Twee weken na zijn raadselachtige vertrek uit Iran overlijdt Van Sabben bij een ongeluk in Sharjah, nabij Dubai. Hij raakt op 16 januari 2009 met zijn motor van de weg, slaat over de kop en breekt zijn nek.

Two _weeks_ later, not two years later. That is incredibly efficient of the Iranian secret service. This is most likely even before Stuxnet was starting to do damage. Almost as if it really were an accident. Or as if there was another secret service involved. One that already knew what was going on. No loose ends.

[0] https://www.volkskrant.nl/kijkverder/v/2024/sabotage-in-iran...

Why would Iran go out of his way to kill a foreign agent in revenge?

His work was done. It is far more likely that he was killed by his own side as a security measure

Yeah, that is what I'm implying here. I doubt Iran would already have known about Stuxnet by the time he was dead.

I can think of only one country that would do something like this.

I can think of three: Saudi Arabia, Israel or the USA. Which one are you thinking of?

In the would of assassinations like these I'd say there are only two countries on that list. Israel/US as one entity and then Saudi Arabia.

In the Greek wiretapping case, which has been linked to the US Embassy, there was a suspicious suicide:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_wiretapping_case_2004%E2...

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