Anyone opposed to seeing the entire C-suite and board of directors having their bonuses clawed back and sent to jail? I'm not.
Let the guillotine come out, I want to see heads roll.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Chinese_milk_scandal
The Intermediate People's Court in Shijiazhuang sentenced a farmer, Zhang Yujun, and a senior manager, Geng Jinping, to death in 2009. five more people received life sentences and the main company behind it went bankrupt.
this was for four infant deaths.
Boeing killed 189 indonesians in 2021 and executives didnt so much as take a breather at the country club between swings, so good luck.
Capitalism just isnt set up to punish the Bourgeois.
Its not a problem of capitalism its a problem of a judicial system having no balls to put execs in prison.
The US had one of these scandals too. nobody was arrested, no one charged. Tammany Hall politician Alderman Michael Tuomey, known as "Butcher Mike", defended the distillers vigorously throughout the scandal—in fact, he was put in charge of the Board of Health investigation.
The guy basically ended all investigation and shielded all guilty parties.
In 1850, we were in the buildup to the civil war and hadn’t even ended slavery, the political and legal environment were drastically different. I’m not suggesting there aren’t lessons to learn but the comparison is ridiculous.
You don’t need a campaign finance problem to get regulatory capture. Only industry insiders have the context to regulate industries. They come from industry, they know and are known by all the players, and back to industry is where they want options to return. They see the world in terms other insiders do and they don’t want to burn any bridges. This is a recipe for industry getting what they want in most cases.
Parent was talking about root cause, not cause.
In the US, corporations, through campaign contributions, lobbying, etc. have influence at all levels of governance. In the end this requires money above all.
The conclusion that the system (including the judical one) is rigged in favor of such coroporations has "something" to do with capitalism isn't too far fetched.
Or for the case at hand: your point would be that the 346 people didn't die because of Boing taking shortcuts for profit; they rather died because their resp. planes fell out of the sky? ;)
Much more talented and studied folks than I have explored this in depth, which you can find if you google capitalism and it's entanglement with the foundation of the USA.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wenzhou_train_collision (2011)
40 people died in train collision, and then:
> On orders from the authorities, the rescue effort concluded less than a day following the accident, and the damaged train cars were seen being broken apart by backhoes and buried nearby. The Railway Ministry justified the burial by claiming that the trains contained valuable "national level" technology that could be stolen. However, hours after the rescuers had been told to stop searching for survivors, a 2-year-old girl was found alive in the wreckage.
So, basically, all we know is that Chinese political system is set up to protect powerful people (such as politicians who are overseeing national rail projects). On the other hand, a local milk dealer is expendable, just as he would be in America.
The main difference is whether these powerful people are called "bourgeois" or something else.
Please read your own link. There were coverups and censorship galore. The problem was this story eventually got so big it could no longer be swept under the rug like so many things were and still are.
> We're responsible for the safety of civil aviation.
https://www.faa.gov/about/mission/activities
Maybe the people responsible are the people who say they’re responsible?
Why?
Imagine if you were tasked with making sure that your app's customer's data were safe. Your boss goes against your recommendation and does something you know will put sensitive data in the hands of hackers. What would you do?
It’s been used to escape responsibility and shirk transparency entirely too much, and if orgs can’t be trusted with it (as they evidently cannot) then they don’t deserve to have it.
For example, instead of ranting and howling about prisons and guillotines, you could point to some successful examples of other companies or orgs that have operated in a similar fashion. That might provide more productive grounds for further discussion. Any good examples?
... Yeah, I thought so.
Is it your assertion that Boeing is currently operated by competent people? They're getting crushed by SpaceX at rockets. How much more of this incompetence will it take before someone does the same to them with airliners? Relying on being "too big to fail" isn't a viable long term strategy. It only lowers the barrier to entry for competitors.
Is it your assertion that they can't get any worse? Because this sounds like a good way to get worse.
You know, they could be killing more than 0.5 people per ten billion passenger miles, right...?
For air travel impacting human lives.
I think it speaks to current generation of leaders avoiding thought, consideration, foresight, insight, and just using any statistic that can justify a decision.
It’s a decline and one that also explains the excitement that LLMs/AI might be able to help us think less, know less, and perhaps be even less responsible for our work products.
A whole door exploded out of a plane and
1. The plane did not suffer structural damage and could land safely 2. Nobody died because seat belts are mandatory 3. The crew is drilled over and over on what to do 4. The plane has extensive monitoring and logging so RCA is easier 5. The US funds a whole org dedicated to investigating this sort of thing and the results are public
and that's just the ones I can think of.
This is shocking precisely because aviation is so good at this. There are multiple layers in the swiss cheese model and this somehow made it past them.
What we're hearing in this thread, from people who have clearly never done much of anything, is that passenger aviation needs to work exactly the same way. "If it can't be perfect, heads must roll. Surely that will fix it."
If this is a genuine comment it’s worth thinking about why you reached straight to defend egregiously bad engineering and manufacturing.
Self driving is a different risk profile, even if you engineer it to the best of human knowledge — people still don’t understand why, and can’t ask why, the system in control of multiple ton vehicles being beta tested ‘in production with human lives’ and marketed as FSD, makes the decisions it makes. Or at least they can’t immediately tell it not to drive into trucks. Which is quite a straightforward thing to ask of a driving control system.
None of those asks are perfection, or more than we’d expect from a child let alone ‘humans’ as a species
You know that current management's numbers are a lot worse than that right?
I wish I knew what would, believe me. I have to deal with the exact same problem, luckily in a factory where there is a lot less at stake.
I just disagree with some proposed solutions in the thread, that's all. Also don't necessarily agree that the situation was any better in the past.
SpaceX has (ok, had) good PR, but they don't do anything others couldn't do. And they'd be bankrupt without NASA.
Most companies would be bankrupt without their customers. A $5 billion government contract isn’t something that can be dismissed as the recipient ‘being kept solvent by Uncle Sam.’