BYD's YangWang U8 launched, can float on water for 30 minutes and sail 3km/h | Hacker News Reader

BYD's YangWang U8 launched, can float on water for 30 minutes and sail 3km/h

carnewschina.com

166 pointsbelter225 comments

Fun fact: The original VW beetle could do this for half an hour or so [1]. There was a (1960s?) article in "Modern Motor", whereby someone tested it and found that there was at least some control, as the tyres provided enough paddle action to move forward and the front wheels acted as rudders.

Their floating inspired some to modify beetles to really make them amphibious [2,3].

Even if it officially floats, I wouldn't like to go up against a flooded river in a 4WD [4]. In this example, the wheels snagged and flipped the car.

[1] https://www.arnoldclark.com/newsroom/527-why-do-volkswagen-b...

[2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MQiS4paC_sk

[3] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2rRwzPz6rzs

[4] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hZNkgixXl7U

I live near the area from [4]. Driving through flooded streets is a huge issue, people don’t understand the dangers. I have a light 4wd and would never take it through any water, no matter how small it looks. You just don’t know what’s beneath the surface of the water.

I remember the front page of The Sun showing a VW sailing down Swanston St in the Melbourne CBD in 1972 during a flash flood. I was 10yo and thought it was brilliant.

That is just cool, thanks for sharing.

It can also do 360 degree self centered turn, which should be useful. No more 3 point turns!

Given the flexibility of installing the motors, I've always wondered why electric cars still can't move in a parallel way. That should be very handy when parallel parking.

> handy when parallel parking.

If you love switching tires.

This is a feature that should only be used for off-roading. Off roads, it is extremely useful to be able to make small-radius turns.

A 4 ton thing doing this on the trails I go on would destroy them.

I hope people don't actually do it.

In my past times off-roading, trails and dirt roads have usually been very generous with places to turn. Not so much when you are off a trail or a road.

Exactly, and unless you are on private property or BLM land you are also generally not supposed to be driving off the trails or roads. So there isn't much use for this other than on private property or on BLM land.

Yeah, this is why Rivian never enabled tank turn.

Rivian advertised this feature as well but disabled it, for obvious reasons.

Obvious reason is immediate tire wear?

I think I wasn't being clear, the wheels basically have to rotate perpendicularly to the cars body, so there wouldn't be any extra tire wear.

What? If left wheels are in reverse and right wheels in forward then the treads are wearing sideways against the rotation!

there's no direction wear at low speeds.

or do you parallel park at 60mph? maybe you drive to work on reverse?

You don't? Learn to drive.

What's the reason? It's not obvious to me at all, sorry.

It shreds your tires.

...why? Doesn't it do it by using 4 wheel steer?

nope. Rivian spins the left wheels forward and the right wheels backwards, or vice versa

Oh. Yeah that's not great.

Hyundai is experimenting with this.

Presumably because the typical EV is already priced uncompetitively enough without two extra rear wheel steering servos that would allow for it.

It can only do the 360 deg turn while floating, which rather limits its utility.

At the end of the article there's an embedded video showing the vehicle doing a tank turn on pavers. The tire manufacturers will love it.

Is tank turn common terminology? I’ve seen skid steer used for this kind of thing on the digger vehicles.

I was parroting the article, but like you I'm more accustomed to skid steer myself.

you are just poor. Mercedes Benz have had cars that parallel park like that by abusing a slight turn on the back wheels for decades.

A car that floats ... but only with a mandatory fully open sunroof ... in a part of the world that gets typhoons.

Is the 30 minute time limitation an estimate on how long it'll take to fill it up in the rain with an open sunroof?

The floating is meant to be an emergency only feature that requires a dealer inspection afterwards every time it's activated.

Typhoons aren't a daily thing.

This looks a great deal like the Defender that Land Rover introduced in 2018.

You certainly aren't the only one to notice:

Even tech giant Google's internet image search believes the Stone 01 is a Land Rover Defender, such is the closeness of the two SUVs.

China’s Land Rover Defender copycat revealed [1]

[1] https://www.drive.com.au/news/china-land-rover-defender-copy...

4 tons as an hybrid with only 50kWh of battery. You would need a truck driving license in Europe, and a speed limit of 80km/h.

Yeah, I doubt we'll ever see on in the UK because of licensing issues.

That said, it's also range extended so 50kWh is ample. I would hazard a guess it would do about 100 miles on battery alone.

It literally says in the article - the EV only range is 180km(about 110 miles), the fuel tank is 75 litres, giving it a combined range of 1000km(600 miles).

Tbh that's an awful combined range and it shows how heavy and inefficient the car is. My Volvo XC60 PHEV only has about 50km EV-only range, but combined with its 75 litre tank it can easily do 1000km, no problem.

Both can do 1k km on 75l, so apart from the Volvo‘s smaller battery, where‘s the difference for the end user? I think it’s a waste of materials to build such cars, but given the weight the consumption seems impressive.

Both cars are plug in hybrids - you need to charge them externally to get the most out of them. BYD needs literally 5x the electricity of the Volvo(50kWh Vs 10kWh) for the same range, so the owner is definitely going to notice it on their energy bill.

> BYD needs literally 5x the electricity of the Volvo(50kWh Vs 10kWh) for the same range

Which "same range"? Did you just calculate electric efficiency using the total range including gasoline? In that case your PHEV needs an infinite times the electricity of a car driving on gasoline alone.

If anything on paper the U8 is 10% more efficient (Volvo says 50km from the 15kWh battery, not 10kWh). With gasoline factored in you have two vehicles with equal 1000km range despite the U8 being significantly heavier.

You can argue that the CLTC isn't nearly as accurate as the WLTP and you'd be right but you still need to check your math and/or logic above.

>>Which "same range"?

Volvo can do 1000km using 75 litres of petrol + 10kWh of electricity(and it is 10kWh in my model, 15kWh is a newer one).

BYD can do 1000km using 75 litres of petrol + 50kWh of electricity.

The math on this is very simple, no?

Sounds like they have the same range. Different power efficiency, for sure, but they do have the same range fully fueled and charged.

.....which is exactly what I said. I complained about BYD's efficiency not range.

Using current U.S. numbers [1][2]: average electricity price is $0.162/kWh, might be cheaper off peak or with solar roof; average gas price is $3.083/gal ($0.815/L) for regular, and $3.885/gal ($1.026/L) for premium which is recommended for your Volvo.

So, with regular gas:

  75L + 50kWh: 75 * 0.815 + 50 * 0.162 = 69.225
  75L + 10kWh: 75 * 0.815 + 10 * 0.162 = 63.525

A difference of 10.3%.

With premium gas:

  75L + 50kWh: 75 * 1.026 + 50 * 0.162 = 85.050
  75L + 10kWh: 75 * 1.026 + 10 * 0.162 = 78.570

A difference of 8.2%.

You failed to mention it's the gas part that's frigging expensive.

[1] https://www.energybot.com/electricity-rates/

[2] https://gasprices.aaa.com/

I'm not in the US. In Europe my Volvo doesn't require premium 98 octane , regular 95 is fine. I appreciate the calculation but I don't know why you're trying so hard to escape the fact that the BYD needs 40kWh more(!!!!!) to travel the same distance(combined with 75 litres of petrol) - it's not hard to see that(as I said 70 comments ago) the BYD is a heavier and less efficient car. There isn't much to argue with here(or at least I wouldn't think so?).

Pretty sure your comment trying to paint or at least hint at the BYD being 5x inefficient is the strange one, when it's actually ~1.1x. Which would be really low down on the list of things to consider when purchasing a $150k SUV. If I were in the market for one, I would go for the option that gives me 180km electric range rather than a puny 50km so that all the day to day short range driving is comfortably covered, even if it's only 90% efficient.

In addition, if we compare only the first 180km, your Volvo (using regular gas) comes out at

  75 * 0.815 / (1000 - 50) * (180 - 50) + 10 * 0.162 = 9.98

which is actually more expensive.

Edit: All the precise calculations are in fact quite pointless.

> so the owner is definitely going to notice it on their energy bill.

Highly doubt owners of $150k SUVs are sensitive to ~$600 more over 100k kilometers.

Your logic is still... lacking. I don't say it lightly but it might be the worst case of obtuseness I've seen in many years of HN.

You mix and match units when calculating a ratio of efficiency and it gets you meaningless conclusions. By your "logic" a Tesla M3, a leader in electric efficiency, is the worst of the bunch. It needs ~100kWh of electricity to drive the same 1000km distance. And ICE cars can do that trip with 0 electricity, many even with less fuel so they must be the best?

It makes no sense other than for you to feel good about your car. But your car needs 10-11kWh to drive ideally a pathetic 30km (!) and 75l of fuel for the other 970km. Other ICE cars, or non-PHEV XC60 (the diesel) need no electricity and 50-60l of fuel for the same distance. And they're much cheaper to buy. So why did you pay anywhere between 15k-45k EUR more to have a "compliance car" hybrid that doesn't even float (/s) when this means you're just getting "less efficient"? Unless you bought the bragging rights, and now you're here to defend them.

The goal of any electrified car is to drive as much as possible on electric power alone without the need to run the engine. Not only because ideally some owners can make their own electricity but also for comfort and emissions.

Ignore the whole Volvo Vs BYD bit for a second.

Car A: needs 75 litres + 10kWh of electricity to cover 1000km

Car B: needs 75 litres + 50kWh of electricity to cover 1000km.

Even a child could point out which car is more efficient, as it needs less energy to travel the same distance. Am I wrong about this? If yes, please tell me how, I'm genuinely listening.

>>It makes no sense other than for you to feel good about your car.

I was trying to make a point that another large and mostly pointless SUV can do the same distance, using the same amount of fuel, and LESS electricity. That's literally all. I could also point out how either of those cars is idiotic, because as you said, a diesel version of the same car will use less fuel and no electricity. I used my own car as an example of a car that is also a "bad" example of efficiency.

I apologize if that wasn't obvious, but man, you really got hung up on this.

>>So why did you pay anywhere between 15k-45k EUR more to have a "compliance car" hybrid

In case you are genuinely interested and not just trolling - because in my use case I'm within the EV only range nearly every day, and my long term petrol usage average over 50kkm is 2.1L/100km.

>>But your car needs 10-11kWh to drive ideally a pathetic 30km (!)

It doesn't, but I don't see any point in explaining to you how my own car works, nor was it a point of my entire comment.

Let's draw a more complete picture with "car XC60 diesel" which needs 65 litres to cover 1000km. It's maybe 20% more efficient and 20% cheaper than car A, and with even cheaper fuel. Yet you picked your less efficient, more costly XC60 PHEV because...

> in my use case I'm within the EV only range nearly every day

Aha! Progress! EV only range didn't matter to you until just now despite my mentions, probably because your car has a meager 30km peak range while the U8 can do ~200km. So the U8 is for people who want an EV that's good for any daily commute (even with A/C or heating), with the engine for road or off-road trips. I guarantee you nobody sees these 2 cars competing in any segment.

> It doesn't, but I don't see any point in explaining to you how my own car works

Luckily you don't need to, we live in the information age. You said 10kWh battery, Volvo says it's good for ~30km in ideal conditions.

My friend, your car was the peak of compliance cars, built only to fetch the EV subsidy, with the tiniest of batteries in that segment, and less EV range than you're implying. You insist on combining it with the tank of gas so it looks marginally more efficient than the Chinese luxury tank. But almost nobody cares about that combo. People care about EV range or gas economy. Your car is a bad at both, with the comically short EV range and an inefficient gas engine pulling 2.5t. Why bother trying to make it look better by some skewed metric nobody cares about?

The old XC60 can do 50km on 9.1kWh of battery - that’s 18kWh per 100km - IMO that’s super optimistic for an SUV of that size (and assumes no heating, AC, lights etc), but let’s assume it holds.

The BYD can do 180km on a 50kWh battery, that’s 28kWh per 100km.

How did you arrive at 5x worse? It’s not even 2x worse. And again, I don’t buy the 50km claim from Volvo, outside of perfect conditions (eg daytime in May, no rain, no AC, low air resistance).

I have done 52km in the past before the ICE kicked in(in perfect conditons, but yes).

>>How did you arrive at 5x worse

You have two cars, they both are fully charged and fueled up. They both drive 1000km and then stop. They both burnt 75 litres of petrol, but one used 10kWh of electricity, the other used 50kWh of electricity.

How much more electricity has the second car used Vs the first one?

Well you‘re making the error of assuming that charging the PHEV before a trip is required. Also, the fact that the BYD is 5x more electricity costs is almost irrelevant for a 1k km trip, because there‘s just an $8 difference for the whole trip, assuming $0.2 per kWh.

On shorter trips, the BYD will come out on top because it can go on battery for way longer, which is (even at 27kWh/100km) cheaper than the Volvo on gasoline/Diesel.

The charging functionality is just a bonus for hybrids (I doubt many people drive a big part of their mileage electric by plugging in). Primarily, the battery serves to conserve energy while decelerating. The BYD obviously also uses the battery as a buffer for its range extender, but the Volvo doesn’t do that.

>>Well you‘re making the error of assuming that charging the PHEV before a trip is required

No, I'm literally going off what the manufacturer said - 1000km range when the battery charge and fuel tank are combined. That's it.

People keep making comparisons for shorter trips, for driving with an empty battery, for driving on battery range only etc etc etc - all of it misses the point I'm making.

>>I doubt many people drive a big part of their mileage electric by plugging in).

If they don't, then why buy a PHEV at all? If you have a PHEV and never plug it in, then your efficiency will be worse than that of a simple MHEV or even a straight up ICE-only car.

> That's it.

We can’t compare the full 1k to 1k km yet because EPA ratings aren’t out - the BYD might as well make 100km more than the Volvo with 75L.

> If they don't, then why buy a PHEV at all?

Subsidies + CO2 ratings (important for EU).

PHEV is a green washing ploy IMO. Plugging in every day is hard enough as it is, I’ve had a fully electric Ioniq for 3 years. I don’t believe many people will do that for just 36 miles (20 in winter), every day. A big chunk of owners don’t even have the infrastructure to charge daily. With an EV you are also often forced to look for destination charging, but with an PHEV it’s perfectly fine to skip that - and people do.

>>We can’t compare the full 1k to 1k km yet because EPA ratings aren’t out

True

>>PHEV is a green washing ploy IMO. Plugging in every day is hard enough as it is

So I disagree in the sense that they do work absolutely amazing if your usecase works for what they offer. Our Volvo does 20-30 miles in EV mode, but that covers my driving needs every day, and we have a charging point outside of the house, so plugging it in every day is literally not a problem. In consequence this car just doesn't use any fuel - I drive it every day but fill it up maybe once every 3 months. In fact the main argument for buying it was how much it was going to save us every month on fuel compared to our last car - which turned out true, the savings more than offset the larger finance cost of buying it.

But on the other hand, I know someone who owns one living in an apartment in a big city, without any good way to charge it - in that case it's an idiotic thing to own, he's basically lugging around 400kg battery pack, ruining his economy, for no reason at all.

>>but with an PHEV it’s perfectly fine to skip that - and people do.

Maybe some do - I wouldn't stop at a hotel without charging point, because even though the range is only 20-30 miles in EV mode it makes a really big impact on overal economy.

If I lived in China I wouldn’t give a shit about range. I would have access to the world’s premier high speed rail network.

Some scenic parts of China are really far from HSR network, and this car is for people who want to visit those places

Isn't it a car for people who live in big cities, but want to give the impression that they visit such places?

At this price range, I think the people that buy this car no longer need to work and can go wherever they want, or actually need it for work lol

Yeah, as an EU, this truc is ridiculously heavy and big. Well most cars produced nowadays are too.. :(

This is a level above companies marking suvs as off-road vehicles, now can float on water 30min before sinking.

I'm really puzzled by the 30 min part, things either seal or they don't. I wonder if it's a genuine limitation or just another one of those standards where devices are tested for 1 hour at 1 meter depth and that's what they advertise.

They have those on watches too. Water proof for 1 hour at 200m or whatever.

Seems like BYD has surpassed Tesla as the biggest EV maker as of the end of 2023: https://www.ft.com/content/716c9b0b-d8cd-491a-a91b-d70c1e540... (https://archive.is/LOiYh)

I'm guessing that Musk's unwillingness to work with the rules and norms in the markets Tesla is trying to enter, will be Tesla's downfall. Hopefully Tesla could somehow get rid of Musk as it seems like he is constantly holding Tesla back quite a bit. (edit: some context: https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...)

I’ll bite the bait, and will point out that Tesla sales this Q have been suppressed by people awaiting model refreshes.

Moreover, you wanna focus on production + days spent in inventory.

Deliveries have more factors involved, and really only useful if full production capacity isn’t being fully sold out (which I believe still is).

BYD isn't even available in all markets Tesla is. For it to surpass Tesla globally without selling to US buyers is nothing to shake a stick at.

You can't sell dangerous $10,000 EVs in affluent markets in Europe, North America, Japan, etc. Fairly strict build & safety regulations prevent that.

I'd say dieselgate, Tesla self-driving safety investigation and the recent Toyota/Daihatsu scandal shows regulations are not working as well as people wish them to.

China's EVs are already in the UK under the MG marque (SAIC[0]) and there's no reason to think BYD won't follow suit AFAICT.

It's just a matter of when, not if, from where I'm sitting.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SAIC_Motor#MG

> I’ll bite the bait

I guess I'll do the same? Why have curious conversation when you can assume the worst?

> Tesla sales this Q have been suppressed by people awaiting model refreshes

You're just saying "Tesla had less sales because of bad $X" with fancier words. The importance is not why Tesla fucked up (that's up to them to figure out), but that they're now being surpassed even though they had a huge headstart.

Included in the stat are $10K cars sold in China, maybe Tesla doesn't want to compete in the extreme low end just like Apple doesn't make $150 phones. Being a profitable barely #2 in a large and growing market is somehow fucking up?

If you are world #2 in your field of work do you consider yourself a failure and that you fucked up? That's a sad existence.

> If you are world #2 in your field of work do you consider yourself a failure and that you fucked up? That's a sad existence.

Personally, I wouldn't, I don't care what "position" I'm at, as long as I have enough. But I'm fairly sure that Musk would take that as a failure, especially if you've been #1 for a bunch of quarters and suddenly you aren't.

(Musk has repeated many times that he wants Tesla to be the biggest automaker [by volume] https://dallasexpress.com/business-markets/teslas-goal-large...)

Musk and Tesla opened up EV patents to help other car companies make and sell EVs, more EVs are getting into the hands of people so that's a good thing.

https://sustainablebrands.com/read/behavior-change/tesla-ope...

Under the condition that Tesla can use their patents in return.

That is just a lie their marketing department tells to make themselves look better thinking people will not look further.

Their actual pledge: https://www.tesla.com/legal/additional-resources#patent-pled...

States you can use Tesla patents if you agree to let Tesla use your patents, rip-off your products, make counterfeits, and steal your trade secrets.

That is worse than standard patent reciprocity agreements and I think most companies would prefer paying for regular patent licensing over such ludicrous IP overreach. Tesla and Elon Musk somehow proposed something even less open than regular patents and had the gall to lie about being openness advocates.

> rip-off your products, make counterfeits, and steal your trade secrets.

Not seeing that in your link, can you quote the relevant parts or cite better sources?

There are no better sources, that is literally the official legal text of their pledge.

“asserted, helped others assert or had a financial stake in any assertion of

(i) any patent or other intellectual property right [highlighted for emphasis] against Tesla

(ii) any patent right against a third party for its use of technologies relating to electric vehicles or related equipment”

Condition 1 states you can not assert any intellectual property right against Tesla. Intellectual property rights include patents, copyrights (protects against rip-off products), trademarks (protects against counterfeits), and trade secrets (protects against insider stealing).

This is explicit and deliberate as condition 2 states only patent rights are protected for others.

Tesla then goes on to reiterate that it explicitly and deliberately protects its own copyright and trademark:

“challenged, helped others challenge, or had a financial stake in any challenge to any Tesla patent; or marketed or sold any knock-off product (e.g., a product created by imitating or copying the design or appearance of a Tesla product or which suggests an association with or endorsement by Tesla)“

They literally need that additional “I’m about to screw you” clarification clause to make double-sure that if you try to fight the terms in the future as unconscionable they can point to how they made double explicitly sure that you realize the rights Tesla is extending you are explicitly a tiny fraction of what Tesla is demanding from you.

Those terms are so unfair it is ridiculous and it is insulting that Tesla dares to claim it, in any way, represents a good faith patent and openness pledge. I can find a more honest promise from a used car salesperson.

This is a stat that people keep bringing up while completely ignoring the fact that many of BYD's vehicles are not marketable outside of China because they're just rip-offs of other manufacturers' vehicles. See BYD S8 [0] and Mercedes-Benz CLK-Class [1] for one example, but there are numerous. This should tell you everything you need to know about this company.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BYD_S8

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercedes-Benz_CLK-Class

> that many of BYD's vehicles are not marketable outside of China

Yet, it seems like they're beating a lot of other EV makers across the world, and are producing top-selling vehicles in a bunch of countries. So seems it's somewhat working outside of China? Or I misunderstand what you mean.

The price outside china is very different. In Colombia for example their 10k car is 150,000,000 cop or about 35k.

This might have to do with Columbian import tariffs, it might also not be exactly the same car.

Why does it matter if it’s a rip off or not? If a design is good why not reuse?

Because it demonstrates a theft of tech and design, which puts their credibility and integrity in question. Is the derivative safe (actually safe, not government-of-China wanting a feather in its cap rubber-stamp safe)? Is the derivative actually comparable (i.e. is the marketing a lie)? Aside from that, do we want to reward companies that steal other companies' ideas?

Please do tell me a company that has released something that is independently invented in its entirety with respect to “tech and design”

Such a ridiculous take on a technology forum.

It’s a waste of human energy to reinvent the wheel. Not to mention the example given earlier is irrelevant since it’s no longer in production anyway.

Please stop moving the goalposts. Iterating on the past is different from thieving entire designs, and you know it.

There is more to design than its surface appearance, and the car described earlier uses an entirely different drivetrain than the Mercedes…

I swear the stupidest takes on this forum called “hacker news”. Hackers who usually reuse the same exploit “tech and design”, lol…

> See BYD S8 [0] and Mercedes-Benz CLK-Class [1] for one example

I was thinking "come on, how similar can they be, the CLK has a really distinctive design", but nope, identical. Wow.

The design can change as long as the tech inside is legal to sell elsewhere and does the job. I'd say the design is anyway the first to change because tastes may differ between continents (even between US and Europe).

The example you gave is for a 15 year old car where only 100 were produced and Mercedes couldn't have been too upset since they signed a partnership with BYD that year. Around the same time Tesla was selling Lotus Roadsters. In the meantime obviously neither still needs to do that. BYD will sell outside of China whatever they are legally allowed to sell on top of the growing sales they have inside China.

> This should tell you everything you need to know about this company.

If you're too focused on how they did business 15 years ago you might miss that they're passing by you today. Does Musk tell you everything you need to know about Tesla? Millions are still buying. If you don't buy BYD it won't be because they were copying the megastars of the time decades ago.

I'm not a fan of Chinese business practices but a lot of big companies everywhere started by copying more established competing products.

You are choosing an example from more than a decade ago, at a time when not even Chinese people chose BYD vehicles. To wit the S8 sold 103 units. Things have changed. You are ignoring the fact that plenty of BYD's vehicles are already marketed and sold in Europe, other Asian countries, and Australia.

Extremely anecdotally, I saw their vehicles on display at a mall in Costa Rica.

I have seen a few on the road in Costa Rica as well. There are not a lot of electric cars on the roads down there despite the tax incentives because they are too expensive for the average Tico. You also seen a decent number of Cherry, Geely, Great Wall and JAC on the road down there as well...among other Chinese makes.

I see a few BYD in New Zealand - was outselling model Y last year: https://thedriven.io/2023/06/09/byd-tops-nz-electric-sales-i... although numbers might be misleading: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38894690

NZ mostly buys second hand vehicles from Japan, so new vehicle sales numbers are low.

They have a dealership where I live in a southern Japanese city now. Seems like a very bold move, Japan must be a very difficult market for a Chinese brand...

I'm visiting Australia now and you see lots of Great Wall trucks

In Austria, they have begun winning contracts with public agencies. Their offering is just good, not least due to their top notch battery tech.

I just rode a BYD taxi (Uber) in Mexico city, I believe it was the BYD D1. Super comfortable, tons of leg space, minivan-style door. The driver claimed that after 100K kms the range was still within 1% of baseline.

Their marketing in Sweden is big: https://bydauto.se/

They claim to be the world's biggest manufacturer of "battery charging" (electric and hybrid I suppose) vehicles.

They look like high end vehicles and I've seen them around often... but never drove one so can't really comment on quality.

That is a 2006 car and BYD is gaining market in Europe, Middle East and SEA also.

Hyundai’s early designs could charitably be called “derivative,” too. Even the early Japanese cars aped existing design languages.

I am not sure it is such a big deal to have a car that looks like a competitor.

Ford used to advertise Ford Granada that looks like a new Cadillac and costs less. [1]

[1] https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/AdwAAOSw~Chg93LK/s-l1600.jpg

> In 2009 the car sold in 96 units, and only seven cars were sold in the full 2010 fiscal year. Production has now ceased. In all, the car sold in only 103 units

This is like saying we should ignore Tesla because the only car they sold in 2009 was a rip-off Lotus.

Speaking as an American, I'd love to see what the presence of low-end (say, $10k range) autos would do to traffic laws and city planning.

> This is like saying we should ignore Tesla because the only car they sold in 2009 was a rip-off Lotus.

No it's not like saying that. Lotus had a deal with Tesla.

https://www.tesla.com/blog/lotus-position

That’s right, I didn’t mean to imply theft of any kind. I’m mostly pointing out that both companies sort of outsourced the body design (BYD in a more questionable way) as they figured out how to grow. Both companies were quite small production-wise in 2009 and are very different today.

BYD also had a deal with Mercedes, for a brand called Denza, in the following year.

BYD is very marketable here in Brazil, and the sales are rising like crazy...

I think if they make a good product it should always be possible to hire a designer to make their cars look good without industrial design infringements.

If he was willing to work with the rules and norms of the markets they want to enter, they'd sell even fewer cars. If they had to deal with the same regulations and IP laws as China, they'd sell more.

> If he was willing to work with the rules and norms of the markets they want to enter, they'd sell even fewer cars

Well, as it stands right now, BYD looks to be the more popular option in countries like Sweden just because Musk refuses to do what every other single company does in the country. Even Amazon found a way to work in a way that the common person is protected, why can't Tesla?

> Well, as it stands right now, BYD looks to be the more popular option in countries like Sweden

Source please. BYD appears to be far far behind in Sweden, not even in top 5 EV company sales.

https://cleantechnica.com/2024/01/02/evs-take-63-1-share-in-...

And not even in ICE or Hybrids in Sweden?

> just because Musk refuses to do what every other single company does in the country

You're assuming a causality with bad and wrong data, Tesla sales are increasing in Sweden.

Where are you getting your information from?

> Well, as it stands right now, BYD looks to be the more popular option in countries like Sweden just because Musk refuses to do what every other single company does in the country

No it's not, where are you getting your data from? Not to mention jumping to conclusions.

> I'm guessing that Musk's unwillingness to work with the rules and norms in the markets Tesla is trying to enter, will be Tesla's downfall. Hopefully Tesla could somehow get rid of Musk as it seems like he is constantly holding Tesla back quite a bit.

Like what? Source(s)?

> Like what? Source(s)?

Added a link that gives you some additional context.

> Added a link that gives you some additional context.

Tesla sold 55% more cars in Nov 2023 compared to Nov 2022, and 9% more in December, so how is that Tesla's downfall?

https://carup.se/trots-strejken-tesla-far-ut-fler-bilar-i-sv...

https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/tesla-...

Edit: Ran into the posting limit but the below is certainly false about Sweden, BYD is not selling the most cars there.

> BYD are selling the most cars, and is the fastest growing in terms of sales in the country

BYD are selling the most cars, and is the fastest growing in terms of sales in the country. If you're aiming to be the company that produces the most vehicles in the world, it certainly sounds like it's not going in the right direction for them.

- "BYD overtakes Tesla - sells the most electric cars" - https://www.mestmotor.se/automotorsport/artiklar/nyheter/202...

- "BYD beat Tesla - grew fastest in Sweden in 2023" - https://carup.se/byd-slog-tesla-okade-snabbast-i-sverige-202...

Isn’t this more like a Huawei vs Apple thing? BYD sells more cars, Tesla makes more money (revenue and profit). It will be more interesting to see what happens as BYD moves more into model 3 territory.

> BYD are selling the most cars, and is the fastest growing in terms of sales in the country

Source? BYD aren't selling the most cars in Sweden.

> BYD beat Tesla - grew fastest in Sweden in 2023

Tesla sold 20K cars and BYD sold 3K in Sweden in 2023. How is that beating Tesla? They went from 1.1K cars to 3K, so had better percentage growth than Tesla

From one of the links in the comment you're replying to:

> Det är i det sista kvartalet 2023 som BYD kan stoltsera med bättre siffror än Tesla. BYD rapporterar att de sålt 526 409 elbilar från och med oktober och fram till årets slut.

> Teslas försäljning å sin sida slog rekord och blev den högsta för ett givet kvartal i tillverkarens historia. Resultatet blev 484 507 bilar. 41 902 färre än BYD.

---

> It is in the last quarter of 2023 that BYD can boast better figures than Tesla. BYD reports that it sold 526,409 electric cars from October through the end of the year.

> Tesla's sales, on the other hand, broke records and became the highest for a given quarter in the manufacturer's history. The result was 484,507 cars. 41,902 fewer than BYD.

Just because it's in Swedish doesn't mean those are Sweden numbers :)

Tesla outsold BYD in Sweden 6 times over.

Well, the last example is unions in Sweden. I‘m sure you can google that yourself?

They edited that in after I asked for sources instead of putting it in a reply, and didn't mark it as a later edit. Can't google something that's not there. Not to mention google shows that Tesla sales increased in Sweden in Nov and December 2023 compared to the same months in 2022.

FWIW, the comment you're replying to was created before I made my edit. But no harm, no foul :)

You asked for an example, I gave you the last example I am aware of: https://apnews.com/article/tesla-strike-union-sweden-labor-d....

> About 130 mechanics at 10 Tesla garages across Sweden walked off the job on Oct. 27 over the company’s refusal to sign a collective bargaining agreement

This is false reporting, only 10 to 30 of the 130 mechanics "walked off the job". The rest like their stock options and performance based pay hikes instead of the union table rates for all.

> About 130 mechanics at 10 Tesla garages across Sweden walked off the job on Oct. 27 over the company’s refusal to sign a collective bargaining agreement

This is false reporting, only 10 to 30 of the 130 mechanics "walked off the job". The rest like their stock options and performance based pay hikes instead of the union table rates for all. A lot of other news outlets picked up this false narrative.

The number of striking Tesla mechanics is so low that IF Metall refuses to reveal how many are striking, and recently expelled some Tesla employees for not obeying their power play of striking.

https://sverigesradio.se/artikel/tesla-teknikern-jobbar-trot...

https://www.na.se/2023-11-16/tesla-ar-den-basta-arbetsgivare...

A lot of other news outlets picked up this false narrative from AP and reporting that 130 employees are striking.

The number of striking Tesla mechanics is so low that IF Metall refuses to reveal how many are striking, and recently expelled some Tesla employees for not obeying their power play of striking.

Recently the NYT finally said only a few dozen are striking. Sad to see previously trustworthy news outlets like AP resorting to abject fake news to smear Tesla and spread a narrative. And it's spread and repeated on places like HN with no critical thinking or research.

Dude. Relax, I’m pointing you at an issue, not that particular article, neither numbers. Geez…

The point being… you asked for sources, I pointed out some I heard about, and you jump at me with some argument I’m not even interested in. I don’t care who’s right and who’s wrong.

The bottom line is Musk started a fight and people walked out.

Huh? Literally I've seen people on HN making the exact opposite arguments about companies bending over rules for certain markets only to lose the market eventually, hence considered a bad example.

We're all different people on here (mostly at least), so makes sense you see conflicting opinions :)

You'll have to wait for more than 1 quarter before you make that call.

Not according to the graph from the article: https://archive.is/LOiYh/d4f25c5617954c2cd5c5e2de424334eacab...

And many people forget that BYD's number's are bolstered by the fact that they sell one of their models for less than 10,000 euros. Of course they will have higher numbers at that price point.

And this is a problem because...?

Tesla's building their cheap car too, but it will not launch until 2025 earliest.

What is "cheap" in terms of Tesla? From my understanding of issues with modern Teslas at full price, I'd hate to see issues when they start cutting corners to make "cheap".

It's all speculation at this point, but apparently they're aiming for a $25k price point:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_next-generation_vehicle

And Teslas built overseas are fine, it's Fremont's quality control that sucks. Which is likely exactly why Tesla is planning to built the Model 2s in Mexico, Germany and China, but not the US.

> I'm guessing that Musk's unwillingness to work with the rules and norms in the markets Tesla is trying to enter, will be Tesla's downfall.

Musk is perfectly willing to play by the rules and norms of the Chinese market. They opened up a factory there and everything, they are even selling lots of cars in the PRC while exporting some outside.

I’m not sure how BYD would fair in Norway/Sweden; where unions are granted blanket monopolies on economic control. Is it even much of a player there yet?

> I’m not sure how BYD would fair in Norway/Sweden

Pretty sure BWD is the top selling EV manufacturer in Sweden, I recall reading that before the Tesla union shenanigans happened.

No idea about Norway

Does BYD use a dealership model in sweden like they do in China? If so, they would just outsource all of those issues to local parties.

They have their own showrooms in the cities.

So they are following Tesla’s direct model?

Yes.

> Pretty sure BWD is the top selling EV manufacturer in Sweden, I recall reading that before the Tesla union shenanigans happened.

Source, please. VW and Tesla seem far far ahead of BYD. I am curious where this narrative started, since multiple people are confidently stating that BYD is outselling Tesla in Sweden.

Those news headlines are very misleading. Most Tesla's, all BYD's and certain Volvo models are imported from China on large ships so will sell thousands in one month and essentially zero in others. So while the BYD Atto 3 was the best-selling car in a couple of the months of 2023, for annual sales it is well behind the Tesla Y and Volvo XC40.

https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/tesla-...

Luckily, all this information is publicly available and searchable, and you will find that it is Tesla.

https://www.car.info/en-se/stats?from=2023-02&to=2024-01&vd=...

It's not even close to Tesla here in Norway. Mostly because the price is not as competitive as they are in China and the system difference is another issue. Plus, the psychology.

Top 20 new cars sales in Norway for 2023

Tesla Model Y: 23.088 cars (18,2 percent) Volkswagen ID.4: 6614 cars (5,2 percent) Skoda Enyaq: 5740 cars (4,5 percent) Toyota bZ4X: 5395 cars (4,2 percent) Volvo XC40: 5025 cars (4,0 percent) Ford Mustang Mach-E: 3792 cars (3,0 percent) Toyota Yaris: 3582 cars (2,8 percent) Toyota RAV4: 3457 cars (2,7 percent) Volkswagen ID.3: 3141 cars (2,5 percent) Hyundai Kona: 2991 cars (2,4 percent) Audi Q4 e-tron: 2688 cars (2,1 percent) Nissan Ariya: 2606 cars (2,1 percent) Nissan Leaf: 2471 cars (1,9 percent) BMW iX1: 2415 cars (1,9 percent) Tesla Model 3: 2083 cars (1,6 percent) Toyota Corolla: 1911 cars (1,5 percent) Polestar 2: 1832 cars (1,4 percent) BMW i4: 1782 cars (1,4 percent) MG4: 1622 cars (1,3 percent) Audi Q8 e-tron: 1602 cars (1,3 percent)

> I’m not sure how BYD would fair in Norway/Sweden; where unions are granted blanket monopolies on economic control. Is it even much of a player there yet?

Unions don't have blanket monopolies on economic control, that's absolute bullshit...

I see quite a few BYDs here in Sweden. My girlfriend even got one as a rental some 3-6 months ago.

They were able to stop Tesla from sending vehicle registrations in the mail. That is very powerful control of economy, if not speech.

Yeah, their system is really foreign to us in the US (no pun intended :)). The idea that people not employed by Tesla will actively block Tesla is weird and really tilts the balance of power.

I'm not aware enough of the details of how this works in general to say whether this is good or bad overall.

Electric vehicles are more heavily subsidized in China than America. 22% of new car sales in China are electric vs 1% in America. China also has a lot of tariffs and regulations preventing foreign competition.

> 22% of new car sales in China are electric vs 1% in America

Where are you getting 1% from? That's off by a drastic amount.

"EV sales climb and are on track to be 9% of US new car purchases in 2023"

"U.S. sales of hybrid, plug-in hybrid and battery-electric vehicles reached 17.7% of new light-duty vehicle sales in the third quarter"

https://www.utilitydive.com/news/electric-vehicles-EVs-new-c...

https://apnews.com/article/automakers-electric-vehicles-us-c...

I would be cautious believing these stats... How much of those sales are real ones? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1SEfwoqKRU8

Their hybrid cars has serious problems, including catching fire on their own. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TXrsmYQvK8E

It's not like Tesla didn't have issues, but not so serious and numerous ones.

Important detail: BYD's "EV" sales numbers include gasoline-electric hybrids.

Not anymore. That was the thing the last time this was (erroneously) reported.

incorrect. BYD sold 1,574,822 battery electric vehicles in 2023. Tesla sold 1,808,581

https://www1.hkexnews.hk/listedco/listconews/sehk/2024/0101/...

https://arstechnica.com/cars/2024/01/tesla-sold-1-8-million-...

Over the year yes, but BYD outsold Tesla in Q4 (pure BEV). That's what's been doing the news rounds this week.

Vehicles sold by price and region is useful. Total # of vehicles sold is not. How many sold inside/outside of China? To put it gently, EV sales in China have had an additional boost from the government (which, btw, I think is good for the planet).

The newer BYD vehicles are more comparable to Tesla (and other manufacturers), but there's a long, long way to go before they prove themselves more than a manufacturer of cheap cars.

Tesla has never been a manufacturer of cheap cars. More recently, it has become a manufacturer of good ones.

The fundamentally simpler nature of EVs means they're rolling software platforms, and the software matters a great deal. Tesla has gotten good at the software side of the equation, and are arguably ahead of pretty much everything else.

I would not trust any sales numbers from the Chinese internal market as they have a long history of faking them for various reasons. This includes doing things like registering the car (counting as sale) and then just parking them on a lot.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/stevetengler/2023/07/19/the-thr...

What would new leadership really do? Make a T-150?

Musk Derangement Syndrome on the first comment about a different car company making a very interesting product. I also saw this in comments in articles about Boeing and Toyota this week.

Is there a browser mod to hide comments like this? Bonus points if it hides the snide demoralization-style comments that have started infesting HN too ("Oh you are a software engineer? Let me tell you why you are ignorant without knowing anything about you")

As much as I'd love to believe that a better leader would make an American company fully keep pace with BYD, I don't see any evidence that this is the case. I really doubt BYD would be doing any better on worker treatment and unionization.

And besides, BYD did that by selling a lot of very cheap vehicles. I don't think that really fits the business objectives for Tesla.

IIRC the strategy of Tesla was to start building very expensive EVs (Roadster, then Model S and X) to fund the build of cheaper options (Model 3 and Y), and the final target would be a mass market car affordable by everyone, maybe in the $20-25K range.

Yes, exactly. BYD can go below that, to vehicles that wouldn't really be marketable outside of China.

The Premium Edition can wade in a maximum depth of 1000mm... WOW next time use micrometers ;)

Climate change will cause tons of flooding. I wont be surprised at the people who jump at a car like this.

Meaning...You will avoid the hoards of hungry zombies, but still make it on time for golf?

Does it come with a propeller and rudder? What's the point of floating if you have no control over where you end up?

It sounds like it uses the wheels and tires to provide slight control and speed.

So if there is any wind at all, your luxury SUV is just going to get blown around wherever the wind blows. I've personally never been to a lake with no wind. Maybe it's useful foolishly ford a washed washed out road and get swept down-river.

I wouldn’t say it’s that bad. 3km/hr is roughly the speed of a rec kayak, and people paddle those. But of course, it might create a false sense of security because weather that’d cause flooding…

I don’t disagree with you. Where I grew up there was a steel grated metal bridge. It would flood. Constantly someone in a truck would try to drive over, get swept against the guard rail, and have to be rescued by the local fire department. Eventually they just started sitting there in a truck whenever it flooded to prevent people from trying it. (It was a rural area… drive around those bridge closed signs ).

It has four wheel motors so theoretically it can steer to some degree in still water. Turing the wheels creates some force from water resistance.

It’s often better than sinking.

They do say it can propel itself at 3km/hr and also turn in the water by spinning the wheels.

3km / hr does not get you very far if you’re paddling against a current. I hope that no one abuses the feature or use it to do the dumb things people often do when they see a flooded road.

Cue idiots that think they can drive across a river in spate because they can float.

I’d also worry about how well the car’s bottom deals with underwater obstructions. And of course that people who own this car would engage in the same sort of shenanigans that we see with Tesla Autopilot.

The car’s interior is a welcome bit of originality compared to the styling in the usual high-end offerings.

Yes let’s buy a car that accelerates climate change!

Dare I ask why an EV would need a snorkel? Air cooling?

It also has a gasoline engine.

Which the article says shuts down immediately when the vehicle starts floating. So maybe it mostly serves as the same reverse status symbol as snorkels on other SUV.

The vehicle also wades in water up to 1000mm (1400mm when lifted), so that snorkel may be useful under those conditions and not when floating.

Does it just stink after 30 minutes?

Not if it's Perrier water.

Or maybe you were thinking about something else?

https://youtu.be/7C-vYY3SBDE

I see China coming for the US auto industry, and fast.

It’s 100% the fault of our industry for sitting around doing nothing but repackaging old technology in overpriced chonker trucks and trying to obstruct the EV transition with disinformation. All they want to do is sell the same mediocre gas guzzler forever.

Innovators’ dilemma strikes again.

Of course I guess Japan decimated US auto last time. It was kinda the same deal. US companies just wanted to sell super heavy low tech V8 gas guzzlers like the Ford LTD. Japan came with reliable efficient cars and ate out the market.

I’m sure they’ll get more bailouts.

Japanese car makers have huge U.S. presence with U.S. engineering employees. SuspectD will be asked to do the same.

   I see China coming for the US auto industry, and fast.

that would be the case if US was a free market. Any Chinese product will be banned if it becomes too successful

They don't have to be banned. The anti-China propaganda is doing wonders to keep Chinese designed goods out.

The USA has effectively excluded Chinese cars from its home market.

In Europe and Asia the Chinese makers are rapidly increasing market share, to the considerable chagrin of other manufacturers.

I'm afraid of the hellscape of even more of these tanks on the road, and even on water now.

Yes, this is not environmentally friendly

And not human friendly neither, don't want to be involved in an accident with such a car

What activities with SUVs are environmentally friendly? Keeping to a trail seems ok, everything else like fording rivers, travelling in groups, going off trails invite criticism.

Yes. Those things are illegal because they tear up the land unnecessarily.

The roads are maintained, they're packed, they're graded, they're specially designated places for us to travel so we don't tear up the whole earth. We pay taxes to do so. I'm not asking to drive on a road I don't pay for. We've all banded together in soceity to build this infrastructure for our shared use.

It's like the path in your yard. Wouldn't you expect people to walk on the sidewalk to your front porch and not walk all over the yard?

Why is this a foreign concept?

The first time I have seen AI generated images being used by a big brand like BYD. The cars are still CGI but the backgrounds are AI generated.

I just assumed it was a really really big car when compared to a horse. It must provide ample head room for a human if that's the ratio. I guess it could be a Shetland pony or something if I were to be generous, but of course it's just bad AI.

https://carnewschina.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/09/04-Yangw...

This kind of car pretty important for China. They are still way behind on drainage in major cities, it isn’t uncommon to see under road passes flooded during heavy spring rains. Japan would have the same problem, but they’ve sunk billions into drainage, the Tokyo drainage system is a world wonder at this point.

Just what the world needs! Another over-bloated over-priced massive SUV!

I'd much rather see $6000 Chinese EVs flooding the US. Then the idiot wealthy can float through a sea of cheap chinese EVs in their bloatmobiles...

I want to see proud citizens of the USA driving their BYD YankWanks and replacing their f650s for the better future.

Fortunately this is heavy enough that it will most certainly never scar anyone’s eyes here in Europe.

> the comprehensive range with a full battery and 75-liter fuel tank is 1000 km.

> 3,950 kg

> 5 seats

That’s just ridiculous. And did anyone really need a floating car in emergencies? How often are people actually in that situation?

Cars that can swim are not new: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amphicar

Cool car idea, but I wish someone would sit down with them to come up with a new model name. “YangWang” doesn’t sound like something I’d want to tall people I own.

If I could afford one, that is.

I'm sure it's because of the weight, but only 1000km range from the batteries *and* a 75L fuel tank is kind of shit.

I'm wondering how many of these $150k+ effectively ever hit even a dirt road. Notwithstanding how heavy it is.

The same proportion of G-class Benzes, Range Rovers and Lexus LXes that go off-road.

Well these are included, I was referring to the general $150k+ off-road looking tank category.

Why would someone want a China made car?

They’re… Chinese people that buy locally?

Because people care about price and quality, if they're within what the person wants, where the car comes from couldn't matter less.

You comment recalled the moment when Elon Musk laughed off BYD years ago for me. You will be told why with hard data.

"Made" or "designed"?

Our Tesla Model 3 was made in China…

Because they're cheap. The majority of people don't care about quality as long as it's presented well and meets some fairly low benchmark level (whatever that is). Pretty much all industries have demonstrated this, and cars seem to be no exception.

Country of origin/ethics/politics also doesn't really play a part in purchasing for the majority of people (again, simply shown through sales)

Because it’s a nice car.

I get your sentiment though, feels hard to trust.

Same reason you would buy a China made computer, phone etc.

They are the new Japan.

Lot of phones aren’t “made” in China. Just assembled.

Quality is going to shit across the board, so short of being able to buy quality, at least why not buy the cheapest flavor of shit?

Ignorance and no standards

Do you really need this many screens? 1 Back bench passenger has 1.5 screens?

Well, why not? There's a market for big, overpriced barge trucks.

Damn that thing is almost as ugly as the cybertruck!

That car's exterior is uglier than Cybertruck

beauty really is in the eye of the beholder.

Daaamn.

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