The ThinkPad P14s | Hacker News Reader

The ThinkPad P14s

utkarshsingh.xyz

68 pointsutkarsh-singh77 comments

> but I still have doubts about the stability of Linux in ARM desktop space.

smh, I don't get it. Maybe just bad distros. Linux ARM on desktop is absolutely, 100% perfectly fine. Hell, outside of 3-6 random utilities, Linux RISCV on desktop is similarly usable (probably less if GHC started publishing riscv bootstraps). The only issue is if I need x86_64 emulation, but it's not like I'm hurting for access to an x86_64-linux instance, anywhere.

It's more about support for all portions of the SoC, I imagine. Even well-supported ARM SoCs (like the BeagleBone Black) are a pain compared to many x86, since there isn't nearly the same level of standardization

There are many applications that don't yet provide prebuilt packages for linux on ARM. I guess it's not a problem for open source applications (since you can always build from source yourself) but doesn't work for proprietary applications and wouldn't work for everyone. "100% fine" only applies to some people, and I definitely wouldn't recommend everyone to take the leap and then find that something they need isn't available.

ARM Linux is probably fine, but that doesn't mean using an ARM laptop on Linux is. I've tried Asahi Linux, and go back to trying it about once a month, and using it feels like I'm testing an alpha thing. Using Linux on x86 machine feels like I'm using a computer.

Perhaps some day it'll be good, but not today. The WTF/second ratio is just too high.

Yup. Axboe runs it daily on his Apple laptop. I’m waiting to see if we get M3 MacBook airs so I can get a used M2 air for cheap.

Same machine here as well, running the latest Ubuntu (23.10) power profiles do work but auto-cpufreq is way more effective in increasing battery runtime for me.

I can get ~6h of runtime (~10W draw) if i mostly just code in VSCode + some browsing, with display at 1/3 brightness and the code being executed remote. Went with the OLED panel, so that definitively doesn't help battery runtime, but damn those colors are nice :)

I wish they would fit in a bigger battery or do some more tuning so that some cores could actually turn off if they aren't used, id happily accept the spool up time for big jobs, if this could increase the battery runtime a few hours/allow for higher brightness. What kind of runtimes/draws are you getting?

> ...~10W draw... OLED...

Also with an OLED, running at 20% brightness indoors, I'm able to get around a 7-8 watt power draw using the lowest AMD-pstate with a relatively modern Linux kernel.

> more tuning so that some cores could actually turn off if they aren't used

Can't you control which cores you use or what you put on them with the kernel cmdline? On x86-64 I use cpu0_hotplug nohz_full=1-3,5-7 rcu_nocbs=0-3,5-7 irqaffinity=4

> but damn those colors are nice :)

This! One day laptop manufactures (excluding Apple) will understand that a vibrant colorful display is much desired by customers than a 1080p matt finish display.

> 1080p matt finish display

The OLED that Lenovo is currently shipping for this and related hardware is not matte, but it's close. It's anti-glare, so it doesn't have the mirror finish of Apple panels.

When someone tells me "you know computers, is this a good laptop for me?", I usually reply along the lines of "make sure you like the picture on the screen and the keyboard/touchpad feels comfortable" - those are the things that can drive you furious or sad about the purchase sooner than anything else.

Awesome machine! Ask me how I know? :)

As for the power profiles issue, it's related to a problem in the BIOS that's resolved in the latest release. However, Lenovo tends not do a good job of getting these BIOSs up on LVFS timely, so you'll need to update the BIOS manually via Lenovo's website.

I'm guessing the author's website is misconfigured. Every path except the root returns an HTTP 404, but the 404 page loads some JavaScript that fetches assets based on the URL. For example, the ThinkPad blog post loads https://utkarshsingh.xyz/assets/thinkpad-p14s/thinkpad-p14s....

This mostly works, but some browsers will display a warning or their own 404 page. Also it means his site won't be indexed in search engines.

If not done correctly, that is the default result with Cloudfront + S3. You set the index and error page to your index.html. That way you get SPA routing but a 404 for all non root routes. The author needs to add a Lambda to rewrite the HTTP response depending on the route, some 404s should be rewritten to be 200s.

Last I checked, this was inevitable if you publish a SPA on GitHub Pages, like the author is doing (GitLab not GitHub, but probably similar): https://gitlab.com/utkarsh181/utkarsh181.gitlab.io/-/blob/ma...

There's an open GitLab issue: https://gitlab.com/gitlab-org/gitlab-pages/-/issues/57

Workaround: Publish the artefacts from CI/CD to Netlify or similar, where you can configure URL rewrites.

Yes, you're on spot! Surely, I can try this workaround. Do you have any references for this workaround?

And this "solution" doesn't work without JS at all...

> For the past year, I have been searching for a replacement for my Lenovo Ideapad. Its 8 GB RAM couldn't keep up with the bloated software I run these days.

I have the same laptop (using it right now). You can add another 8GB, even though the specs say you can't. (thanks, lenovo...) The big limitation seems to be CPU, despite having an i7-6500U in this one. Opening Google Maps makes the machine crawl, but most other sites don't have a problem. It's definitely not speedy but it is functional with about 100 tabs open.

The main reason I want to replace it is to use a USB-C docking station, have real graphics support ("hybrid" graphics is crap in Linux), and have more than 5 hours battery life. Otherwise it's kind of amazing how well it's working after 7 years.

Even though it's technically "heavy" for a modern laptop, it actually feels easier to pick up and carry around than lighter laptops. The corners are angled/sloped so that they're very easy to slip a hand around, and the case is sturdy held in one hand even when open (thanks to the case being half-metal, half-plastic). Way easier to move around than my Macbook. A great example of how design makes a big difference to usability.

You can buy used Lenovo USB-C docks very cheaply but I've had some issues with those.

I also tried those big rectangular HP USB-C docks, but those things break so quickly they often arrive DOA.

My point is: it's a _great_ idea but I haven't found a dock that works relaibly yet.

I have a Dell D6000 USB-C dock that works decently with my MacBook. Monitor isn't detected at first, but I unplug and re-plug and it detects it. There's supposed to be Linux support for the USB DisplayLink chipset but it doesn't work for me.

The CPU power state issue is resolved in the latest BIOS update. It's not on LVFS until they resolve some certification issue, but you can burn the update ISO to a USB stick and boot from that.

Also, mine is outfitted with 64GB of RAM; not sure if this is still available from the Lenovo store.

Thanks for the info! Can you provide reference to this certificate issue?

This P14s is very nicely spec'd with its Ryzen and 32GB of RAM.

Beyond their durability, stellar keyboard (with TrackPoint), OS compatibility, and overall value, ThinkPads have a certain additional charm I've never been able to explain.

I fell for the TrackPoint. I really miss the X200 that had no Touchpad.

Used X200 units are still available. Put 8 GB RAM and an SSD in them, and they're good for most Linux purposes.

And the X200 is relatively easy to put Coreboot/Libreboot on (as in-circuit SPI flashing headache goes, compared to those models that require extensive teardown), and the Intel ME code can be removed rather than merely disabled.

> 32 GB LPDDR5X RAM @ 6400 MT/s

Sadly soldered down - LPCAMM [0] cannot come soon enough.

[0] https://news.samsung.com/global/samsung-electronics-industry...

Ya, LPCAMM sounds interesting.

i have a machine quite close : i went for the p16s which is the 16 inches version. buying during christmas got me a price reduction and for 1100 euro i got a 7840U cpu, 64 gb of lddr5 ram, 1 tb samsung ssd, 16" low-power use, low-blue-light display, 89 Watt/H battery, 100W charger (instead of the default 65W one), fingerprint reader 5MPixel webcam and cardreader. for barely 1k euro you get an amazing machine. and it comes preloaded with fedora 39 where everything just works : p-state by default, modern-standby. all works fine.

Watt-hour (Wh)

What a beast! I will try to figure why power-profiles are not working.

What a deal. Where did you get it from?

ThinkPad P14s = ThinkPad T14 with 64GB RAM and NVIDIA RTX A500 = 1mm thicker ThinkPad X1 Carbon which costs $1000 less

The X1 is basically a sports car at this point.

P14s doesn't have discrete graphics.

P14s has an optional discrete graphics - see the specs: https://www.lenovo.com/us/en/p/laptops/thinkpad/thinkpadp/th...

P14s (AMD) is what the article is discussing.

I really appreciate "hardware reports" like this.

Tangentially related, I've never seen this symbol before: ≍, apparently it means "equivalent to". Is this common notation in certain communities?

≍ means equivalent to, in math and logic.

You've perhaps seen the meaning written just as a tilde "~" such in ASCII-based text, or written as "==" in JavaScript meaning loosely equal to. IIRC the symbol is also useful for asymptotes and limits, such as Big O notations.

In hydraulics that symbol is a fixed flow restrictor such as an orifice plate

I would have expected '≈' as the symbol.

Right, that's normally what I'd use in this situation. But that means something more like "approximately equal to", whereas this notation seems more akin to "equivalence" as in an equivalence class. I don't have a clear memory of what notation we used for that in school, but it wasn't this symbol.

I thought that was “approximately equal to”.

Thanks! I just followed what GNOME Characters suggested.

ChatGPT says it is not common outside of specialized mathematics

I'm also considering that P14s AMD Gen4. But to do some ML stuff i need the damn Nvidia cuda cores :/ It has a USB4 port and could in theory run a eGPU but i can't find any infos if it would work.

Also it seams that the [1] intel 1360p is a bit faster? and i'm on the safer side because of real thunderbold support.

[1] https://nanoreview.net/en/cpu-compare/intel-core-i7-1360p-vs...

Every time a potential eGPU build has come up for me (~half a dozen times over the past few years) it's always made more sense in the end to simply build a generic ATX box, stuff the GPU in there, and just remote in. FWIW. The two times I tried anyway, because hey, fun new challenge, the primary lesson learned was that it was not worth it, most recently being ~6 months ago.

> The two times I tried anyway, because hey, fun new challenge, the primary lesson learned was that it was not worth it,

Not cost effective or too buggy?

Yes to both. On top of that, having the laptop be physically stuck while doing a long CUDA run was a worst-of-both-words situation. Much rather launch something and then be free to take the laptop somewhere else while the run percolates in the server room.

Currently i do exactly that. I have a ATX box (AMD 2700x + Nvidia 3090) and access it remote, but i hate that it is idle most of the day and to transfer the data that i'm working on to it. (My notebook is my daily driver with company access)

I just bought a eGPU case and will give it a shot, will report back :)

I had a similar problem with needing a more powerful computer but not wanting to idle it all day long. The desktop however supported Wake on Lan, and the router stays on 24/7 anyways. So I ended up configuring SSH and software to send the magic packet on the router, and then sleeping the desktop. SSH in, send the wake up packet, then remote into the desktop. Put it back to sleep when I was done.

There's still some quirks. You can't wake the desktop from a shutdown state, only a sleep state so you have to be a little careful only to put the desktop to sleep. But worked remarkable well and didn't require any additional hardware at least for me.

The data transfer portion I don't know if I can offer any good ideas for you. My workflow was to treat the desktop as the primary workstation most of the time.

Be curious to hear your experience with eGPU as well.

Please do! I'm looking forward to hearing how it works out.

Got my Razer Core X (arch linux cuda was already installed as i have in my T14 a NVIDIA GeForce MX450) so far it works pretty well, thunderbold cable in set CUDA_VISIBLE_DEVICES=1 and have a lot more cuda cores ... yay. I use it with my spare 1070ti but will add my 3090 soon.

It’s great to see a hardware report like this — thank you! — but I would love it even more if this was calibrated against other laptops.

That feels like a stretch for an individual to pull off. Linux OS vendors often have wikis saying what does and doesn’t work across many makes and models, but those still feel like isolated reports from a wide variance of reviewers. It’s hard to put an ordering across the reviews. It is literally comparing Apples with non-Apples.

Who has tried ‘em all and picked the best, what was it, and why?

I had one of these (albeit with a much lesser config) and what made me not like it was the screen. It felt ancient somehow. Might have been my employer cheaping out though.

There was also something weird with the fn and alt or ctrl keys being switched, but from what I gather that's Lenovo's little kink

The cheapest panel option is absolutely horrible, but the others are pretty decent. Might be that.

This can be changed in the BIOS.

I have the same machine running Fedora. After trying Ubuntu (it is supposed to be officially supported), PopOS! and MX that was the only distro with proper nvidia drivers to use full video resolution without lagging. Did you setup nvidia drivers in Arch? Could you share the details please?

My machine doesn't come with an NVIDIA GPU. However, my Ideapad previously had a dedicated NVIDIA MX 150. You can refer <https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/NVIDIA> for more information.

For what it's worth I just bought a M1 Pro 14" Macbook Pro. At Amazon, some of these are being sold as Renewed-Excellent condition. It has 16GB of RAM, 512GB SSD. I paid $1380 after tax. I have prime card so I'll receive 5% cashback. It has 90 days return policy. It appears Apple waranty hasn't expired yet either (6 months) which means it was first activated 6 months ago.

Its charge cycle count was 2 and the machine itself is in excellent condition. I think M1 Pro processor is way more capable processor than M3 (non-pro). I know it is 2 year old but Macs go a long way. I'll switch to a newer laptop way before its support will end. So far I'm happy with the purchase.

You can pay monthly for an indefinite apple care warranty. Kinda nice when the soldered on components die they’ll replace it.

I think the M3 stock outpaces the M1 Pro. Edit: seems to be a toss up. https://nanoreview.net/en/cpu-compare/apple-m3-vs-apple-m1-p...

I think the GPU performance is better for M1 Pro. M3 has better single core performance and a slightly better power efficiency. I don't need single core performance though as I don't do things that need burst performance on a single core. And for battery power, I think any Macbook is way beyond my needs at this point.

Also similar spec'ed Macbook Pro 14 with M3 (non-pro) is above $1900 after tax. Almost 40% more expensive. Not worth it IMHO.

Is there any laptop these days that comes close to MacBooks hardware-wise and run Linux?

Framework AMD is almost as good and better on the freedom and maintenance aspects.

Not to mention you can put the same amonut of RAM and storage in a DIY with the same processor as this ThinkPad for ~$1400 sticker price for everything, about $700-800 less than this non-upgradeable machine. And if you can sacrifice a bit for the 7640u (~20-25% performance hit), it's about $1100 or ~ half the price of this machine.

Personally I find it hard to believe it's worth spending twice as much for basically the same internals.

Performance-to-endurance ratio - unfortunately, no. But P14s (owned one before M1 Pro) has great build quality, performance is comparable, screen is good enough, keyboard is much better, sound is adequate, ports are better, portability is better... It's also very quiet even when under load. You're definitely not missing that much if you go with it instead of MBP 14, in my experience.

Nothing from Intel or AMD will come close as it relates to battery life. While there are arm options that have great battery life, the performance doesn't come near to that of a Mac.

Apple CPU has a good performance/ battery balance but they are not the best in either department. AMD reached and surpassed M performance already 1-2 years ago

It's easy to surpass performance with a 150 watt TDP.

But for laptop users who aren't plugged in 24/7 performance/battery life is an important factor.

I don't want a drag-race laptop that has ULTIMATE POWER ... for 1.5 hours and then I need to plug it in to a 200W+ power supply to get it to charge while still working. I want one I can use a full work day and still have battery left.

The good old 5800H had 45W TDP (and was 20% faster than M1).

The newer ones use significantly less power, I belive 15W TDP is common.

Love the P series

I had a P50 that I stuck three disks and 64GB memory in, it was great for VMware demos or testing out a full stack with Vagrant or Docker or whatever.

The P14s is actually fairly close to the T14. I think the P series used to be intended as beefier compared to the T series, but at least in case of 14-inch models, there doesn't seem to be much of a difference nowadays. The P14s is thin and light similarly to modern T series. I think some of the larger P series models are available with discrete GPUs and possibly more powerful CPUs, though.

(I have a private T14 as well as a P14s from a couple of generations ago for work.)

Last time I checked the Lenovo Yoga Pro line has an aluminium chassis and also passes the military testing that thinkpads go through.

Honestly I didn't see much of point in paying more for a thinkpad loaded with enterprise specs(pro chip, for instance) and lacking amenities like a graphic card instead of just going right away to a high end consumer-oriented laptop like Yoga Pro.

Am I missing something?

Do they still have the mouse nipple?

The yoga doesn't.

Tragedy

Hopefully!

> The final straw was a suspension issue, possibly introduced due to a regression in the Linux kernel

Wow, I had these in 2012 on multiple machines and thought it wasn’t a year of laptop Linux yet.

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