Navajo Nation request to delay private mission placing human remains on the moon
space.com
space.com
If it’s because of the religion of the deceased, there’s an easy fix: take someone who was an atheist.
Nothing's gonna be learned here, it's a vanity project, it's entirely just the idea that "we should do something special" with dead people beyond what is strictly necessary from a public health stand point.
Ironically, that seems to answer my question.
luxury space tourists sending them a check to turn the moon into their personal graveyard, polluting the surface with organic material which seems scientifically disastrous dictates the efforts just fine.
If the only thing that stands between turning the moon into the next dumping ground is the traditions of the Navajo people they might be worth listening to.
Not sure why people are trying to create a wedge between science and religion here. The Navajo and scientists have more in common on the question of stewardship of the moon than SpaceBurials Incorporated. Same goes for stewardship of the earrh btw.
_yet_
We should treat & act towards the Earth & Moon with great respect and great caution, we were given the right to live by God or the Earth & the Moon. Its time we take a step back and learn we live *with* the land and *because* of the land...I could go on and on but I'd be happily surprised if you take the time to find gratitude for the moon.
The idea that we must "leave no trace" on the moon or any other heavenly body is idiotic and impossible. It stems from scientist looking to protect their own interests. We will live on the moon, and mars, and many other planets some day. These were all gifts given to us by the Almighty.
“No one, and no nation, owns the moon…”
Didn’t stop the US from planting a US flag on it!
At face value this seems both completely absurd and arbitrary, so I can't help but wonder if there is some context I'm missing here, because otherwise it just seems like the leadership of the Navajo Nation is trying to deliberately hurt their own credibility.
If they make objections in the future about desecration of sacred land, it will be easier to argue their objections are frivolous by using this as an example going forward. An unfortunate outcome for them.
There are many obstacles to living on the moon, but I don't think their belief will bar us from burying people there. Like other religions, believers will have to disconnect their god from the physical moon body.
In response, the President of the Navajo Nation, Buu Nygren, has filed a formal objection with NASA and the U.S. Department of Transportation over what he calls an act of desecration. "It is crucial to emphasize that the moon holds a sacred position in many Indigenous cultures, including ours," Nygren wrote in a letter dated Dec. 21. *"The act of depositing human remains and other materials, which could be perceived as discards in any other location, on the moon is tantamount to desecration of this sacred space."*
This article is about the NASA response, and links to an earlier article [1] about the complaint
According to Nygren, this has been an ongoing concern that "echoes back to the late 1990s, when the National Aeronautics and Space Administration sent the Lunar Prospector, carrying the remains of [geologist] Eugene Shoemaker, to the moon. At the time, Navajo Nation President Albert Hale voiced our objections regarding this action. In response, NASA issued a formal apology and promised consultation with tribes before authorizing further missions carrying human remains to the moon."
Nygren reminded parties that NASA had previously committed to notify the Navajo Nation regarding memorial flights and that the Biden administration promised to consult on tribal concerns of this nature, as outlined [2] in the Memorandum on Tribal Consultation and Strengthening Nation-to-Nation Relationships on Jan. 26, 2021.
"This memorandum reinforced the commitment to Executive Order 13175 of November 6, 2000," Nygren explained. "Additionally, the Memorandum of Understanding Regarding Interagency Coordination and Collaboration for the Protection of Indigenous Sacred Sites, which you and several other members of the Administration signed in November 2021, further underscores the requirement for such consultation."
[1]: https://www.space.com/moon-navajo-nation-objection-human-rem...
[2]: https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/presidential-action...
what point are you making? if you acknowledge its only a matter of taste, then who cares about navajo tastes? especially when the taste is wrong. the moon isn't sacred.
My answer is that it's distasteful to them and their belief system / worldview. I happen to share the same distaste, though not on any religious grounds.
Who cares about Navajo tastes? Presumably other people who agree with them and would support a ban on vanity projects on the moon or who find it distasteful, like myself.
Indeed, I should think that apart from any religious objections, there should be deep concern from a purely scientific standpoint. This is, right now, a pristine space. We should not be leaving a bunch of organic material there for purely commercial reasons.
Regarding the scientific concern, NASA and space agencies DO have controls in place to limit potential biocontamination.
Because there's not really a central enforcement mechanism like there is for regular laws?
I mean, that's a problem for all international agreements, but it seems like it would be relevant here as well. It would require a tremendous amount of political capital and buy-in from every country capable of making a vehicle that can travel to the moon. And spending that political capital for something like this seems like pretty low ROI
This request doesn’t seem reasonable to me. And seems like a waste of governance to spend resources evaluating these requests to stop putting human samples on the moon.
Of course, if a group is offended by the activity I like that they earnestly post their letter noting concern and requesting consideration. It will just be bad, I think, if a single letter from a single group that has just seen a thing would stop some valuable activity. Value as judged by the resources put into funding such a mission, somebody thinks it is worthwhile.
And this is not a "group of people", it's a nation. Just as USA is a nation.
And while you're at it, just burn a print of the Quran. After all, that's just some paper and it will bring valuable heat. And the "group of Muslims" will certainly be happy to help.
Come on.
These group of Muslims would also do a lot more if they had unlimited say
I’m imagining you blamed the Charlie hebdo staff for being murdered?
Would you support Scientologists getting South Park banned? It was very insulting to their religion and core beliefs, right?
What now?
There is such a thing as a test of sincere religious belief, and it requires, for one thing, an established religion. There is no established religion that believes in lunar burial. You can't just make some shit up and say "that's my religion." If you could, then everyone would be a part of the church of never paying taxes.
You, emtrw, cannot claim that you belong to a religion of one that you just made up right now, apply for tax exempt status and expect it to work because "religion." That isn't going to fly. And just because your church is exempt from taxes, you are not.
Here is a Reddit thread explaining this further[1].
And to put this into context relative to the thread, you cannot claim that your religion says burial on the moon is your highest honor and expect it to be taken seriously, when no one is taking the religion older than Christianity seriously, and it's obvious your religion doesn't really exist. The real legal world doesn't operate under video game logic where you just need a cheat code to hack the system.
[0]https://www.fidelislawfirm.com/how-and-why-religious-organiz...
[1]https://old.reddit.com/r/NoStupidQuestions/comments/184get7/...
Only the cheese part; or all the religious interpretations about it (no exceptions).
I respect human beings regardless of their beliefs. Having "right thought" be the basis upon which you dole out respect doesn't sound particularly rational to me.
I'd actually argue that refusing to respect people due to differing beliefs is the root cause of much of the suffering we so often attribute to "a belief in the imaginary."
Near by a Navajo sheep herder and his son where watching the strange creatures walk about, occasionally being tended by personnel. The two Navajo people were noticed and approached by the NASA personnel. Since the man did not know English, his son asked for him what the strange creatures were and the NASA people told them that they are just men that are getting ready to go to the moon. The man became very excited and asked if he could send a message to the moon with the astronauts.
The NASA personnel thought this was a great idea so they rustled up a tape recorder. After the man gave them his message they asked his son to translate. His son would not.
Later, they tried a few more people on the reservation to translate, and every person they asked would chuckle and then refuse to translate. Finally, with cash in hand someone translated the message: "Watch out for these guys, they come to take your land."
/s
Seriously, why do we still have religions?
Phew, thought you were going somewhere else with this. Close call.
Reminds me of the THE WHALES WILL DIE offshore wind suits. No, they won’t- but they will at 3C of warming
Hate living in a vetocracy.
Obviously, all moon activities must be reviewed against every current and historical culture and religion.
- https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38827569 (6 days, 17 comments)
- https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38899120 (8 hours, 9 comments)
This particular thread is odd since it also shows up as a 2 day old discussion if you search for it, but navigating to it takes you here, a 1 hour old thread. @dang, this thread seems like it time travelled, with 2 day old comments showing up as new.
It seems that any private enterprise can just launch any type of item(s) to the moon without any rules or oversight what so ever?!! How TF did we even get there? And how can we get rules and policing in place really really fast?
The article mentions advertising as one example - it would have to be a very large sign to be visible down here, but there are people that stupid, and there are corporations that rich. The thought alone is beyond disgusting to me, and I don't think I'm overly sensitive in that specific regard.
As an European it did not escape my attention that these enterprises are American. These private enterprises from one specific country are allowed by that one specific country to desecrate (and that is the proper word) something of immense importance to almost all the world. I guess there's a word for that, and I guess it's Hubris. But then there are many more words, none positive in any way.
This should never have started. It has to stop. Immediately. But how?
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Also, after reading the comments, it seems that the concept "sacred" is not really something that my fellow commenters here, uhm... internalize (let alone, understand). Let's just say that if a spokesperson for an Indigenous Nation mentions that something is "sacred" to them, it means that that something is far more important to them than your morning coffee, or the distictions between Vi/Emacs, SPA/MPA, PHP/Rust. Which is something like "extremely important" times infinity.
Also, if a spokesperson for an Indigenous Nation says something like that, it will be beyond rude to suggest that he does not state the facts (or that he is somehow lying or pretending something).
This is regardless if you are religious, atheist, or whatever. Just FYI.
And no, I'm not Navajo.
Are commercial space flights subject to the Outer Space Treaty?
Now sending corpses to space is a waste of valuable resources. Materialism wins, don't do it.
It's interesting how materialism helps reaching an optimal result in this case. Let gravity define the place to rest.
A small step for stopping climate change; a big step for the family Johnson earning travel points.