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Comment by tony_cannistra | Hacker News Reader

I'm just not that compelled by that argument. If cars are at the center, then so are a hundred other things that are impacting biodiversity at least as much.

I'm really not trying to be a car stan here, I don't really care about cars. But focusing on cars is kindof a dumb distraction, in my opinion.

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It's not so much cars themselves as it is car-centric development that causes many problems.

In the US at least, this is pretty clear: when you design new areas and cities around cars as the primary or even only way to get around, this hurts the environment a lot more than denser, multi-modal style of developments. It results in more total space needed per person, and it results in higher energy expenditures.

If you look at vehicle miles traveled per capita, the US is around 2x that of major Western European countries, and nearly 4x that of Japan: https://publicinterestnetwork.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/02...

> It's not so much cars themselves as it is car-centric development that causes many problems.

I wouldn't call it car centric, more like everyone-gets-to-have-a-lawn-and-2000-sq-ft-home centric.

Herein lies the crux of the problem, not in the mode of transportation. Americans are used to such huge spaces per inhabitant that driving appears to be the only option.

We have districts with detached houses where I live and to me they were always sort of a dead zone. No shops, no restaurants, not even a way to get across, as every square metre is someone's property, so at times you'll have to take a huge detour on the way to your destination.

Do the people living there drive everywhere? Apparently not all of them and instead they accept that they have to walk a significant distance to get to the next bus stop. All because they're used to having a lot of space and will never sacrifice it for an apartment in a place where everything is closer.

Apartments are horrible. If you get a crying baby neighbor, or a dog, or neighbors who blast music at 3am, there’s nothing you can do about it.

Nothing. The police will not help you, as noise ordinance is not enforced. Your apartment manager won’t do anything because none of them do anything.

Other fun apartment specific happenings: constant clouds of marijuana smoke, curry spice smell seeping through the walls and sticking to everything, and constant thuds from anyone walking above you.

Without rigorous enforcement of rules, apartments suck. And there is no enforcement.

Suburban homes suck. If you get a neighbor mowing their lawn, weed-whacking, leaf-blowing, ignoring their dog endlessly barking outside, or partying late on their patio, there’s nothing you can do about it.

Nothing. The police will not help you, as noise ordinance either doesn’t exist or is not enforced. Your HOA, if you have one, won’t do anything because none of them do anything.

(Yes, this is tongue-in-cheek, but it is also rooted in real experience. Yes, I’m aware electric lawn equipment exists and somewhat improves some of the above when used. Nevertheless, city apartment living for me has been quieter than suburbia.)

Gas mowers are fast and run during the day. I couldn’t care less about daytime noise, because I sleep at night.

Animal control will eventually come for dogs left outside, but it takes some effort. The more property you own, the less this matters. And some HOAs DO enforce where apartments will not. HOAs aren’t in the business of making anyone happy, unlike apartments. They exist to do the opposite, in fact.

There are levels to apartments - I have lived in apartments like this in my 20s, but there is a whole world of single family condos that is more like my suburban childhood home. I live in a townhome in a dense area and experience no noise from neighbors beyond the occasional lawnmower or loud car. I’ve been able to find homes like that easily in urban centers in various parts of the US where I’ve lived.

> I wouldn't call it car centric, more like everyone-gets-to-have-a-lawn-and-2000-sq-ft-home centric.

That's one and the same when it comes to the states.

> If you look at vehicle miles traveled per capita, the US is around 2x that of major Western European countries, and nearly 4x that of Japan:

You do know that the population density of the US is a fraction of that of the countries that you're comparing it to, right?

Yes, and I also know this means that the US can spread out within metro areas, not that it must spread out. Did you know that?

I think you're right that cars are not a unique ill here. But I think it's worth observing that car-dependent societies disproportionately exhibit complexes of destructive patterns: car dependency goes hand-in-hand with insufficient urban design, poor transit networks, food deserts, etc. The latter aren't uniquely produced by car dependency, but are substantially aggravated by it.

I thought crime rates caused food deserts, not cars.

Edit: https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/food-deserts#locations-...

Concentration of the poor, and segregation are identified as the primary causes there. Not cars.

They're related phenomena. In general, sprawl (associated with car dependence) tracks with food deserts[1]. Reduce the sprawl, and you reduce the need for cars to access affordable, healthy food (and corresponding absence of access when people can't afford cars).

[1]: https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2019/08/190805181637.h...

There are 2 billion parking spots in the US, enough to pave over the state of Connecticut.

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