Britain's got some of Europe's toughest surveillance laws. Now it wants more
politico.eu
politico.eu
But the risks extend far beyond privacy. History has shown us, time and again, that tools created for one purpose can and often are repurposed for more sinister ends. A government, benign today, could transform into a malicious entity tomorrow, wielding these surveillance capabilities to suppress dissent, manipulate public opinion, and maintain power through fear and control. The technological infrastructure for a surveillance state, once established, becomes a formidable tool in the hands of an oppressive regime.
The tricky bit, as with most UK law'n'order politics, and the rightwing playbook in general, is dealing with how people want other people surveilled. Fear of crime and immigration narratives drive a demand for "something to be done" and "more powers".
The ECHR is pretty weak against surveillance (https://www.echr.coe.int/documents/d/echr/fs_mass_surveillan...), but it has been used in some cases to reduce it. But see how unpopular ECHR is in the UK - because it applies to humans, not just citizens, and there's a lot of people who want the state to be lawless against non-citizens.
Philosophy Tube episode on this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fCUTX1jurJ4
If it was just the state, then I might even be able to live with it, as my trust in my government is rather high, even if I do agree with your second paragraph on principle.
The problem though is that lax/non-existent privacy laws also allow Joe in marketing and his friends to do all kinds of creepy privacy-invading things, which I worry about much more. It fosters a mentality and culture around how to get the easiest to those who are most susceptible to whatever it is your peddling, and in today's day and age of social media I think it's fair to say that it's increasingly clear that that kind of culture isn't exactly a net favor for humanity as a whole.
It's probably naive from me but I'm honestly much more worried about big tech and their nonchalant approach to privacy than I am about dangers of my government going full surveillance state. The two issues are of course not entirely separate either, they're very much intertwined.
I had occasion to look up Chris Huhne (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chris_Huhne) as the energy secretary who kicked off the UK new nuclear programme, and right at the top of his wikipedia is .. the phone hacking scandal. Private surveillance by the press, which has been used for a wide variety of malicious gossip purposes rather than any kind of "speaking truth to power".
As the saying goes, it happens slowly and then all at once.
Then you're very fortunate to live in one of the minority of places in the world where government is even moderately trustworthy. Many, possibly most people, dont and the tools of the surveillance state are increasingly being applied by their governments to further repress possible sources of change from that governing mean.
It's impressive how many people make this argument and then turn right around to fully support the full plethora of modern KYC and AML laws with all their dubious justifications and even more dubious applications with absolutely no sense of the double standard. One supposes that a rght to privacy, individual autonomy and a life unscrutinized by an orreaching state also should include these things applied firmly to ones financial life, at least enough that any larish transaction isn't treated as if it's potentially criminal right off the bat.
Back in 2008...
"UK terror law used for Iceland deposits" - https://www.ft.com/content/55398517-1ea9-3248-8205-3268e037b...
The news of ever increasing state surveillance, rising inequality, low salaries, privatisation leading to sewage filled waterways and the deliberate destruction of the NHS, revolving door cronyism and the weather contribute to feelings of dissatisfaction.
Maybe the grass isn't actually greener elsewhere(?)
We too are circling the neoliberal drain like UK but are perhaps a decade or so behind. And racism is rising rapidly. :(
I'm from a Nordic country but have lived in England. To be frank, in many areas it's a real shithole country, and I'd really not want to live there. Not as bad as USA but getting there fast.
Thanks to Trump, the term "shithole country" has now been termed as a dogwhistle for racists, so I'm genuinely curious as to what you mean when you're calling certain parts of England a shithole?
Pretty harsh descriptor, but I’m from the North and often have referred to my area as a shithole. It’s not the area’s fault, it’s 40 years of mismanagement and underfunding, but still not a good place.
Is it? I just asked a question completely in earnest and it seemed to ruffle a few feathers. I thought Trump was the world's problem the last time I checked, oh, every media outlet.
so if one says Britain (the US, or some other place that used to do very well) is turning into a s-hole country the message and accuse goes right back at them. In this case the (racist[1]) Brits who pushed for Brexit, and by doing so have transformed themselves into a s-hole country.
in that case it is still a dog-whistle for racists but the tune that is produced is 100% an insult against the people who deserve to hear it.
[1] ... "to be absolutely clear it wasn't just racists who voted for Brexit. C'nts did as well! -- Stewart Lee
What's actually racist (well, technically: "culturally imperialist") is to consider the provincial concerns of US internal politics as some kind of universally applicable yardsticks. People all over the world have used words to the same effect way before Trump and will do it way after Trump.
If anything, one could easily call parts of the US a "shithole country" regardless of their racial breakdown. In many parts of the word, locals will gladly admit it for the status of their own (whether racially homogeneous or not) country too.
Remember Trump wasn't world president so not everything exports across the Atlantic.
Why would you feel the need to say something like this
Britain's infrastructure is noticeably decaying — potholed roads, buildings in a poor state of repair (let alone well-insulated etc), litter, old buses and trains, homeless people sleeping on the street. There's more of this the further one travels from London.
What is the current PC way of describing Swansea or Blackpool in American English?
If you asked someone who lived here, it would be shithole.
Okay thanks for the advice!!
And of course it's really fucking cold and dark in the winter. But at least it's warm indoors, unlike in England.
Haha, that hit very hard after speaking to a home developer at how dire the building regulations are in the UK compared to the EU or even the US with the gov actively subverting better building efficiency regs.
Cronyism is rife in the UK, it's so open it stinks.
Once it gets below -20 it doesn't really matter. Also, saunas.
> hardly any sunlight
No need for blackout curtains. Don't see this as a minus.
> introvert culture
That has pluses and minuses.
> mandatory conscription
I think everyone should be forced to do some kind of service. Having a trained force is a good idea when faced with...
> looming threat of Russia doing something funni
I don't think they are going to invade Finland again anytime soon, and Russia can very easily be a threat to any country within ICBM distance.
> Don't see this as a minus.
You should try it sometime, getting only one half assed hour of sunlight a day would probably drive me to suicide personally.
> Russia can very easily be a threat to any country within ICBM distance
Well once those start flying it's all over so that's not really a consideration. Small things that don't make a NATO intervention worth it are the real problem. Wasn't it just on the news today or yesterday that they've been jamming GPS in the area? Nobody goes to war over one "accidental" stray missile that just happened to go off course during an "exercise" and blew up a few houses a few km over the border, like that one time in Poland. That kind of thing.
Saunas don't really offset the cold at all, although they are nice anyway. Cars not starting up due to the cold is really rare nowadays AFAIU. I haven't owned or need a car in 20 years, so no personal experience, but I don't hear any complaints about it.
And it's not something you need to really worry about e.g. in Helsinki. In UK for example a lot bigger problem is that the traffic goes into total halt when it snows.
In general I agree that the climate kind of sucks (although the summers are nice). But this is an annoyance, not life-or-death stuff.
> You should try it sometime, getting only one half assed hour of sunlight a day would probably drive me to suicide personally.
The lack of sunlight does suck a bit. And if you're really suspectible to SAD, living up north is probably not a good idea for you. But most just get used to it and it's more like people complaining about the rain in the UK.
And you definitely do need blackout curtains (or an eyemask) in the summer if your sleep is sensitive to light, so it's not really a pro. Most get used to it though.
> Well once those start flying it's all over so that's not really a consideration. Small things that don't make a NATO intervention worth it are the real problem.
Regarding the current situation, Finland is further from Ukraine than e.g. Turkey, so a stray missile from there is obviously just not gonna happen. And even if it did, a stray missile is almost certainly not gonna have much casualties in the bigger picture. Everyday risks are magnitudes larger than such.
There's been all sorts of jammings and airspace violations for decades. They probably mean very little. Joining NATO did slightly increase the miniscule risk of war for Finland in my calculus, as Finland became a geopolitical buffer zone for NATO. Those tend to get the worst horrors in major wars (see e.g. WW2). But anyway you're a lot more more likely to get hit by a car or something than being a casualty in a war.
The lack of sunlight in the winter comes of course with lots of sunlight in the summer (although that may have its downsides too if you're not used to it). I don't find the climate ideal but it's not that big a deal.
The conscription may suck a bit, but you can get out of it quite easily if you want, and it probably wont concern you as an immigrant anyway. And generally a conscription military is better for a country's stability than a professional one.
The threat of Russia is not a huge concern. And the overall everyday safety compared to most other countries vastly outweigh this minor risk.
I find the best part is that the wellfare state is still somewhat intact and things tend to just work. This really lowers the everyday stress compared to e.g. UK or USA.
Of course it's not for everybody but for many aspects it's a good place to live (although getting worse due to neoliberalism, like most places). This is probably reflected in that Finland is the happiest country in the world for six years straight now.
Received a masters degree in STEM from a Nordic country. This somehow rendered me less desirable in being hired?
Living on the streets is not what I envisioned while signing up for an university program.
Countries that have progressed rapidly in their digital transformation are also (generally speaking) further down in their transformation into a "control society".
So wherever you go (and unless you chose to start from scratch living on your own farm) it's impossible to escape for very long.
Another thing to take into account, is whether legislation has also transformed itself in favor of civil rights during the same time. But can only happen as a second step, and much slower (law when applied needs precedent). Odds that civil rights transform equally fast and fair immediately are nil (and in favor of more tech and more surveillance).
To "get out" (if there is such a thing) one would have to move to a place that is far behind in that regard (and even here YMMV because some poor countries transform into control societies ling before they are digitally transformed).
Inequality has been pretty stable over the last couple of decades:
https://www.statista.com/statistics/872472/gini-index-of-the...
Public services are significantly and noticeably better (my doctor once profusely apologised to me that because of resources my referral could not be the same day he made it but had to be the next morning), the tax rate is lower (because of the Tax Scheme for Researchers) the government isn't spending its days on some War on Woke bs and I'm generally much happier. After a year here I've already purchased a home and am planning to stay for the long term :)
I have dual UK-EU citizenship which helped.
Nothing is being done to investigate them.
It looks like government is simply bribing security agencies and giving them nice toys in a silent agreement "you don't touch us, we don't touch you".
That said, this is not sustainable.
However there's a weird thing that I've witnessed. Large crimes are being ignored and instead non-crimes (or minor-crimes) are blown out of proportion. Then the investigations consume all the oxygen eventually sliding off the ruling party like water off a duck.
A rotation of cabinet, a new face to lead and all is forgotten it seems. Faith in the alternative parties is also shockingly low (not that I am a labour supporter under Kier.. but that's also kinda my point).
People would rather lurch even further right for answers, many people loudly supporting "Reform UK" which is the political refit of "the brexit party" and even before that was the "UK independence party"- a purely populist party.
HOWEVER.
The UK has been on the decline since 1992 (or earlier) and managing a nation in decline must be extremely difficult. Nobody is willing accept that they're poorer, financial services need the pound to remain strong so they keep the currency from falling which in turn makes everyone unable to afford to live.
It is a sticky situation with no clear answer other than to muck down and face the reality that if we want to be a wealthy nation again we either need to go back to exploiting other countries or produce things of value.
As always: by whom? And the answer: the press.
The UK media are pro-Tory and far-right to such an extent that they quietly ignore all this massive corruption in favor of slamming alternatives down at every opportunity. The only exception recently has been the Mirror's dogged "partygate" series.
Cash-for-peerages has been so normalized that there's not even an investigation.
(The court system largely works against whistleblowing in the UK, because of the very high risk and cost of losing a libel lawsuit even if you're mostly correct)
God forbid we have an even more "far right" government than the one that has overseen a full decade of all-time-high immigration, has utterly failed to stop the years-long exponential increase in illegal boat border crossings, has swept under the rug the revelations of rape gangs operating in towns and cities all throughout England, has rolled out the red carpet for agitative gender and race activist groups to take root in every institution from museums to universities to primary schools to the civil service, ....
The issue is that the right wing will tell you things you want to hear and then either: not do those things, or they "solve" them in a way that cuts you off at the knees.
I'm not sure if it's a right wing thing in general but it's definitely something I see the right wing in the UK and US do a lot. Populism seems to be a lot about treating symptoms not causes, so if there's a migration crisis: lets make life so bad in the country that people don't want to live here!
>Keir Starmer pledges to clean up politics and crack down on cronyism
headline today. You never know.
We don't have an ID system but we have a lot of ID requirements.
It's quite laid back compared to some countries though. They usually only come after your assets. Very few people go to jail.
Some years ago I moved abroad for a while and then they'd kind of drop your records after three years out of the country. Now I'm not so sure.
So while people don’t carry ID cards, everyone of working age definitely has this ID unless they exclusively work undeclared, off-the-books jobs. So I’m not convinced that the lack of ID cards is some meaningful privacy protection.
So bottom 20% and top ~5% to 10% are golden, middle 20% to 60% are hoping (dreaming?) to make it up a few deciles, and 60% to 90% are hoping to make it to top 10%. And until they make it there, they have to dot their i’s and cross their t’s.
It's more recent that the pointless announcement has been made at many stations.
I'm skeptical of their effectiveness, and while I hesitate to make broad statements based on just a few days in a country it seems to me to be indicative of a major cultural difference.
"Unelected" -> Literally a monarchy with a sitting house of lords, which still includes some hereditary titles.
"Bureaucrats" -> One of the most paper/form heavy countries in the EU (Aside from Germany in some cases).
These industries have been decimated during the pandemic when the migrants (who mostly could still remain in the UK despite Brexit thanks to (pre?)settled status) decided that it was no longer worth to stay in a place that is not only hostile to them but now offers the same quality of life as their native country.
Cue the “nobody wants to work anymore” cries.
So, solely a UK decision again.
There was something about sending money to the EU for them to reinvest in cities in the UK which weren't London.
And more likely, the new AML laws that would have impacted our politicians and private companies ability to hide taxable income.
This is so shockingly shortsighted it's almost funny. Do the people writing these bills not consult with any technical advisors? I mean they somehow took the concept of a backdoor (which in itself is already a very bad idea) and somehow made that concept even worse. At least with a backdoor, a tech company could preserve some semblance of security to a system outside of the parties that have this backdoor access. Keeping exploits in is just egging on bad actors to find the exploits that the spy agencies have already found. I'm honestly speechless.
It is interesting to compare them to Japan where the downtrend isn't anywhere near as marked and is potentially related to some change in energy policy related to 2011 [0].
It would be a lot easier to get people focused on stuff higher up on Maslow's hierarchy, like privacy, if they were warm, comfortable and could afford to manufacture stuff locally. Otherwise they'll probably need to buckle down for some internal strife, shrinking real pie could result in all sorts of weirdness. I'm not sure what the precedent is for a 25% drop in energy.
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_power_in_Japan#Post-Fu...
> could afford to manufacture stuff locally
"UK manufacturing sector climbs to eighth in world rankings"
https://www.themanufacturer.com/articles/uk-manufacturing-se...
No, the surveillance stuff is pure elite politics and not driven by freezing pensioners.
If I was an elite in the UK, I'd want to be going totalitarian too. Someone should be getting hopping furious; these numbers are comparable to unravelling-of-social-fabric events. Although ironically the totalitarians seem to be outperforming the UK economy; China claims to have overtaken them on a per capita energy basis back in 2020.
But I agree that people are being squeezed. Energy and housing are becoming crippling costs. The social fabric is fraying. Attempts to blame it all on foreigners are running out of steam, but managing to promote violence along the way. Liz Truss finally broke something the middle class would notice: interest rates. We're due a Labour government which might start to address some of these things.
Not surveillance, though. New Labour were very keen on it too.
In the UK we see an economy with, y'know, substantial debt. A lot of their alleged assets at the national level are US treasuries which are unreliable stores of wealth [0]. Their ability to secure energy just cratered by ~25% from peak.
That is some pretty dire context. Then we have the elites - who are aware of these factors - pushing through extremely heavy surveillance laws. Now it might be that surveillance is cheap these days, but nevertheless the policy disaster that they've engineered needs to be considered as a factor. In their position I'd certainly be tempted by a rats on the sinking ship mentality and the lure of flirting with totalitarianism.
[0] With China apparently selling off their debt the UK is trending towards being the 2nd largest holder of US debt. Which is a bit risky given the US is likely to engage the printing presses in a big way.
The dollar holds its value better than the pound. US treasuries remain undefeated.
> pushing through extremely heavy surveillance laws
The thing is, none of this is new. We had extremely heavy surveillance in the 1980s (see Spycatcher, Zircon) and 1970s, back when British troops were murdering civilians on the streets of the UK. The UK surveillance industry always asks for more power. And it's consistently somewhat popular with the public.
(aren't you an American?)