You're Supposed to Be Glad Your Tesla Is a Brittle Heap of Junk
defector.com
defector.com
https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/tesla-mu...
A friend of mine bought a brand new Model S, and within weeks experienced the squeaking noise the article talks about. Tesla took months to sort it out, after making excuse after excuse.
He never bought another one.
> All the upside-down incentives and warped prerogatives [sic] of the startup world are on display here
Interesting post to see on a site sponsored by Y Combinator.
Trouble is, as an approach it works a lot better with CRUD apps than with cars.
Is Tesla even still a startup? They're 20 years old, the world's most valuable automaker, publicly traded and part of the S&P. Seems like a cheap jab they needed to add something to the Reuters article.
(Strictly speaking a random employee rather than the company itself, but “cars from [non-Tesla manufacturer] are only non-horribly-broken because they’re 100 years old” seems to be an _extremely_ common line taken.)
Quite different from water running into the car in heavy rain or in a car wash.
That being said, despite being leagues ahead of Tesla, or US brands in general, German premium car build quality is not what theor reputation would make people think.
Similar to the BMW cupholders that couldn't get wet without damaging electrical parts.
https://www.courthousenews.com/bmw-cupholders-not-designed-t...
So again, do those faulty designs mean that BMW is a startup?
And yes, BMW having those issues is embarrasing as well.
An unbiased news source would provide some context for comparison, but Reuters is on an anti-Musk crusade (they even mention a few other hit pieces they've written in that article).
Fortunately other people here have provided some context:
"In documents that Jeep provided to the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration, the automaker [Jeep] says that it is aware of 21 instances of [rear coil] springs detaching"
https://www.consumerreports.org/cars/car-recalls-defects/jee...
"Honda said in documents filed to NHTSA that it has 61 customer complaints in the U.S. [of rear trailing arms detaching]"
https://www.cbsnews.com/amp/news/honda-crv-recall-2023-rust-...
"Toyota warned owners of BZ4X electric SUVs to stop driving them because the wheels might fall off."
https://www.cnn.com/2022/06/24/cars/toyota-bz4x-tundra-recal...
That Reuters article could have been written about any automaker. They all have catastrophic failures from time to time and they all have thousands of customer complaints out of millions of vehicles sold.
>Misleading headline: >“Tesla blamed drivers for failures of parts it long knew were defective.”
>Reality (buried in the article): >Tesla paid for most of the 120,000 vehicle repairs under warranty.
So potentially 59k people had to pay for it themselves?
https://www.autoblog.com/amp/article/car-brands-highest-cust...
On the one hand I don’t doubt Reuter’s reporting at all. I’m sure there are defective vehicles and Tesla has a history of passing their mistakes down to customers and being evasive.
On the other hand, critics of Tesla seem to get a little hysterical, too. It’s like people are offended that Tesla dares to sell a Nissan Sentra-like vehicle with leather seats, an electric motor, and some tech toys for boys.
People buy shitty vehicles like Jeep Wranglers all the time and they’re satisfied because that’s what they want. They could spend less time in the shop if they bought a Toyota Camry but that’s not what they wanted.
https://www.freep.com/story/money/cars/ford/2023/05/11/ford-...
What does this all add up to now? It just tells me Tesla is a real established automaker now.
Lexus/Toyota being the most reliable.
Tesla is middle of the pack at #14 and some surprises (branding?) include Volvo at position 25.
Source: https://www.consumerreports.org/cars/car-reliability-owner-s...
This is my second X5 G05, and this one is definitely of lower quality than the first. Removed bits here/there, replaced aluminium parts inside with coated plastic, replaced leather with synthetic-like thing and plenty of other cost cutting markers.
Don't tell me 'oh don't buy another one' as demonstrated by this article (and others), they all do it to pretty much the same degree, all you can hope is not to run out of warranty before something mind bogglingly expensive breaks.
I found it really sad to see that Mini (owned by BMW) and BMW are pushing hard on run-flats. Hard NOPE from me, as I drive a good amount in fairly rural areas, and driving 50mi from a random point (the flat-driving range spec of a run-flat tire) still leaves me at a random point with no service. And the quality is just gone way down, as you've noted. Too bad.
These issues with Tesla aren't recent, they've been talked about for a decade at least.
* their charging infrastructure is by far the best. Regardless of coverage, their chargers are typically in working condition.
* they actually put enough power in their powertrain. No dinky, slow cars. Fast, powerful cars. They’re fun to drive when you want them to be fun.
* technology.
Slobs, no. Specialized to a degree you can’t imagine, yes.
Tesla hires PHDs, normal OEs will hire kids out of a few MI or IL schools, train them, and then put them in 200 person teams.
There is a guy that does nothing but dog light mounting on 4 models of vehicles.
That is not how Tesla works.
But yes, this hyperspecialization is the main reason I didn't fo to automotive. Benefit of mounting the same light so, the guy doesn't mount it in a way that doesn't light the intended area or causes cable fires.
People at OEs made fun of them for this. For awhile.
- Tesla almost went under due attempted over-automation
- Tesla had to resort to rework cars in tents after they left the assembly line with serious quality issues
- Teslas are among the worst built cars according to technical inspection numbers
- Tesla installed touchscreens not rated for environment or use case
- Tesal still has reliably figured out how to install hod and trunks
- Tesla still doesn't know how to keep water out of the interior of their cars
I am inclined to say those PhDs were right. Not that redicule is something to level against your competition, but hiring PhDs to built cars who never did so is just a bad idea.
And believe it or not, I want Tesla to make good cars that don't pose a hazard for various reasons. And I think one of the sadest things about Tesla is all the stupid, ignorant mistakes they made, all easily avoidable. Just image where they could be now, if it wasn't for all those sheninigans. I hate to see it, when people and companies blow opportunities that are once in a, heck multiple, lifetimes.
Price, range, charging speed & reliability, performance and software.
It’s pretty obvious at this point with the entire auto indistry switching to NACS that Tesla won.
They're all bad. There's a whole scene in the Fight Club movie where they explain every car company will refuse to fix a deadly problem unless they calculate the lawsuits will cost them more than the fix, and I believe it.
https://www.consumerreports.org/cars/car-recalls-defects/jee...
https://www.cbsnews.com/amp/news/honda-crv-recall-2023-rust-...
Edit:
From your own links:
>> Jeep Grand Cherokee SUVs Recalled Because Suspension Parts Might Fall Off
Might =|= did fall off, pro-active =|= waitimg for four years until being forced to do a recall
>> Honda is recalling nearly 564,000 of its older model CR-V sport utility vehicles because road salt can cause the frame to rust and rear suspension parts to come loose.
Emphasis on older, rust and can cause -> recalled before suspension parts broke, and definitely not on brand new cars
>> Subaru is recalling nearly 875,000 cars and SUVs in the U.S. because the engines can stall or a rear suspension part can fall off.
Again, can, and not did fall off.
Sometimes it seems reading comprehension, or the lack thereof is directly linked to technical understanding, or again lack thereof.
Carmakers often know of issues for years prior to a formal recall. This is standard.
Do you mean GM or Honda?
> On September 17, 2015, General Motors entered into a Deferred Prosecution Agreement with the United States Department of Justice, in which GM admitted that "from in or about the spring of 2012 through in or about February 2014, GM failed to disclose a deadly safety defect to its U.S. regulator ... It also falsely represented to consumers that vehicles containing the defect posed no safety concern."[5] As part of the Deferred Prosecution Agreement, GM agreed to forfeit $900 million to the United States.[5][51] GM gave $600 million in compensation to surviving victims of accidents caused by faulty ignition switches.[52][53]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Motors_ignition_switch....
https://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/12/business/air-bag-flaw-lon...
Or one of the dozens of carmakers that hid faults that resulted in actual deaths?
I can Google all day and find dozens of such issues with other automakers, but you seem hell bent on hating on Tesla so nothing will change your mind.
Cars are recalled because a part might fail during operation, worst case that risk is found once the part did fail.
Only a bunch of incompetent frauds would:
a) ignore their own data and wait four years to recall, and then only in one market
b) need years to find a solution, as it seems, still isn't good enough
c) issue a policy to blame these failing parts, well known and identified internally, on their customers
You might want to study the issues with the non-tesla fast chargers in the United States to see what customers really care about.
> According to the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration, Ford issued 55 safety recalls in 2023, down from 67 last year. The repair campaigns affected 5.9 million vehicles, down from 8.6 million in 2022, which put the automaker in second place for the total number of vehicles recalled. Honda’s 19 recalls affected 6.3 million cars.
> Chrysler issued the second-highest number of recalls, at 45. Kia came in third for the total number of recalled cars, with more than 3 million affected by its 20 repair campaigns.
https://www.kbb.com/car-news/in-2023-ford-again-led-nation-i...
How many of those did you see reported on HN?
And many of Tesla's recalls are OTA updates, and even software update recalls show up on HN.
The author's assertion that they have never had a wheel fall off or suspension collapse is completely meaningless. Of course they haven't. These are extremely rare events, and it has no bearing on whether, for example, the mentioned suspension collapse was due to a faulty part or due to the driver having hit a really bad pothole at speed previous to the collapse or something else. We don't really know based on the information available. We'd have to look at the telemetry that Tesla has on the vehicle and examine it for events prior to the suspension collapse.
This sentence is not going to age well.
It's going to age even less well in a couple years.
I drive a Saab. Also no surprise.
So regulation is quick actually!
And no lack of motivation to tap into the great magic generator of wealth and prosperity that is building a couple billion more vehicles with giant batteries because that will obviously help the environment. Regulation works!
I guess they'll find some way to also regulate this awesome technology so that it doesn't endanger people in immediate proximity.
Ah yes, "tradeoffs" about "new things". The main innovation in electric cars are large rechargable batteries.
// I know this comment might sound incisive, off-topic or unreasonable to many readers, but i'm gonna leave it here and gladly collect downvotes because it's my unfiltered opinion. Nothing against electric vehicles, but their current treatment by society as innovative technology with a positive impact when used in the same way we use cars today is ludicrous to me. And when it comes to the cost of cars, direct or societal costs, I am strictly opposed to subsidies. There are already too many cars per capita and the number keeps increasing.
Regarding article:
I don't see anything specific to electric cars here, not even in most of the defective parts. The safety regulations shouldn't require much or even anything specific to electric cars here. Especially no exceptions or loopholes. Should be the same framework as with combustion cars.
And Euro diesel subsidies 4 years ago.
> building a couple billion more vehicles with giant batteries because that will obviously help the environment
There was a new memo. Not only environment, also good for the grid because batteries in cars are good oversupply storage. Apparently.
[1] Not the inventor, the company.
Saabs were the only cars not allowed on our lot. The lead tech refused to even look at them. My neighbor two houses down owns 3 Saabs. None of them run of course. I often wonder “what was he thinking.”
I daily a Land Cruiser and I thought picking up a Tesla simply for my work commute would be a wise decision.
However the nearest dealer and service center is 2+ hours away. That combined with all the anecdotes from my friends who had bad experiences with the them have kept me away.
My pickup truck only gets used when I need a pickup truck. I believe I've only put ~500 miles on it in the past 3 years. But it is a single cab 2500 so my son cannot ride in it. Maybe when he's older and out of the carseat.
The Tesla would simply be to haul my son to school and myself to my office. I'm looking at just getting a Prius or a CRV Hybrid now. The Land Cruiser only gets ~10 MPG so that's a bit of an annoyance for me. Getting a steady daily commuter would mean the Land Cruiser can be simply for recreation and longer road trips where we need the storage space.
I read these pieces because I own a Tesla and I'm not a fanboy.
But starting an article like this, I have to subtract a lot of emotion.
I assume someone starting an article like this don't know the depth of their own bias.
Just deliver the facts. They should speak for themselves.
/s
>> “No one should drive these vehicles until the remedy is performed,” the Japanese brand’s US arm said in a statement.
Now compare that to Tesla's approach.
By the way, hub bolts getting loose are a serious, and weird, issue. Less serious so than the suspension falling apart so, and not having a proper suspension design after sears of knowing about the issue.
https://www.rivianforums.com/forum/threads/another-critical-...
These hit pieces are stupid. Look at the high satisfaction rates - equal to other luxury brands - mentioned in another comment. I'm nowhere near alone in loving my Tesla and plan to purchase more in the future.
Yep, I had to have my trunk latch replaced (service center is 2 hours away, but they sent a mobile service vehicle to replace it free in the parking lot at my work - super convenient!). And the 12v battery died, which was annoying.
Other than that it's been rock solid and soooo fun to drive. No oil changes no gas station visits, and I use full self driving every day. Every single time I accelerate, I floor it and it throws me back in the seat. It holds 7 passengers (I have small kids for the tiny back two seats) and does 0-60 in 4.7s. Woo hoo!
It's the best purchase I've ever made and gives me joy every day. Your mileage may vary!
> The reason Tesla hasn't "worked all the bugs out yet" is that the company is run by people who hold established best practice in ideological contempt, and is defined by a tech-industry culture that fetishizes innovation and regards product quality as a third-order concern. There simply isn't as much investment money and credulous tech-media adulation to suck up in the promise of iterating on what already works. You must reinvent, almost literally in this case, the wheel—this time, apparently on the premise of "...and what if it sucked?"
So much of capitalism is about convincing people things are hard, bad, wrong, & that your product/service and your product/service alone have it right.
The top post in "I'm skeptical of low code" works at a low-code shop, and was a perfect example of this, of blasting code & showing off a form builder & wowwing folks. But then the hard part really starting. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38820160
My dream is for humanity to have a better relationship with technology. One where the tech shows itself off better, is more observable, so we can understand it's upsides and it's downsides more honestly, tweak it some. And from that better position, we can steer and adjust the way forward. Rather than just serve us, giving us the option to see in and learn what's afoot, empowering us; that's like the first steps on the path to Engelbart-ian Augmenting Intellect. And it's how we escape humanity being victims to this Phoenix cycle of capitalism constantly burning everything down to let vc's and founders attempt a new ascent.
Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 20): I'm 1.7 m (5.57742782 feet), and I felt more squeezed in a German long-distance bus than in any LCC I've ever flown. The bus ride? Six hours.
I Elon, if you are reading these, I would pay R2 for a Tesla S, but wait it is a NFT. https://lcordier.github.io/blog/20231231
I have one customization request thou. We can discuss.