Hacker News Reader

That sounds like a lot of transport and staffing, but how does it compare to the numerous hands and steps that products pass through in the normal grocery supermarket supply chain?

Obviously they're handling more product at each step, but there are so many more steps and so many more miles, I could see it swinging either way.

My favorite thing about a farmer's market is that I'm talking to people with direct knowledge of the product and its production conditions. I can ask if the recent weather affected it, or what the outlook is like for the rest of the season, and usually get an intelligent answer. If something's advertised as organic or pesticide-free or whatever, I can get specifics about exactly what that means as it applies to this precise crop, not just a set of certification criteria that cover a whole industry.

And if there are ways to preserve that directness while making the market more efficient to get more products to more consumers without compromising the things that make it special, I think that's absolutely worth looking into.

Yeah, the freshness and the shorter supply chain are the important elements for me. For things to show up in my supermarket, they have a very long path through distribution, warehousing, and retail. Farmers' market products often go direct from farm, to truck, to market. This allows them to carry products that don't keep as well, are already ripe, or that are subject to damage in the traditional model.

I mean at least on the West Coast of the US, my direct experience is that local farmers are selling at local grocers, that's where they sell most of their goods(that and to restaurants). Maybe not in Downtown SF or LA, but even in Davis or Sacramento for example, groceries are typically going to be locally sourced when they are in season.

This is because at the end of the day it benefits farmers and grocers to deal direct. Better produce, no middle man. Produce is very straight forward to sell by the pound too.

I think this might be because most US produce comes from California.

It is noticeable how much better vegetables and fruit are in California because it has to travel such a short distance.

yeah, it's exactly why I specified the West coast. Still applies to a lot of people on here though.

It depends on the grocery store but it’s usually a wash unless it’s an ethnic grocery store that doesn’t try to maintain constant inventory. The major stores like Vons, Safeway, Fredy Meyers, Publix, etc try to maintain the same fruit and vegetables in stock year round which is really expensive and requires a lot of infrastructure to move harvests from all over the world.

Farmers markets and other stores try to focus more on seasonal produce that’s produced more locally so it can be cheaper and less energy intensive.

> even at increased cost or less selection

This is fascinating though, because our local farmers' market (Alemany in San Francisco) has like, 3 time more choices than any single grocery store. There's clearly different stalls marketed at different social-economical groups too, from the crunchy super-organic store to the asian grandma favorite stall and everything in between.

Miss the Alemany Market, one of the best in the country.

This was also my thought. Farmers’ markets often have varieties you’d never see at grocery stores, which is part of the appeal.

> . It's pretty objectively a waste of energy, money, and time

Some would see it as saving energy, money and time because the product comes direct from the farm to the town, and you are cutting out all the middlemen (who's time you pay for and who want a profit margin), warehouses (who suck energy), long supply routes (using energy), etc.

Oddly in poorer countries, farmers markets are the cheap place to get produce, and you will pay a premium to buy from a supermarket, whereas in rich countries that trend is reversed.

I feel like this is too hard to just assume without actual calculations.

If it went to a grocery store, it would go from the farm to a central location (which is who knows how many hundreds of km away), to some distribution center (again, who knows how far away), to then go to a local supermarket. I wouldn’t be surprised if that’s less efficient than shipping it to a local market!

Aside from that, where do the products in a local supermarkt come from? Depending on your country, I’d be surprised if those bananas didn’t arrive on some freight ship. Talk about inefficiency! In my case, even tomatoes are often from a different country and then we export our own tomatoes to other countries too. It’s crazy.

Next to that, I’m not sure about the other points. At least in my country it’s cheaper (everything is in season), fresher and simply way better.

Regarding choice, it depends. I won’t find any locally grown bananas. But I will have more choice in vegetables and fruits that actually grow in my area. Personally I like that, since I care more about efficient and sustainable produce than shipping something halfway across the world for my pleasure.

I expect it's an issue where the value added for the consumer is within some externality of each business, but not of the market on a whole.

This would mean that if any farmer decides that financial profit is the main form of value they optimize for, that farmers markets become indistinguishable from other grocery sources, punishing the consumer.

But if most vendors either quantify non-financial outcomes or leave them as intangible then these consumer friendly qualities are unlikely to be optimized out.

> In my case, even tomatoes are often from a different country and then we export our own tomatoes to other countries too.

This can make a lot of sense as the seasons shift. Eating local is only efficient and sustainable if you're sticking to what's in season or keeps well. Long term refrigerated storage, water-sourcing and indoor growing to extend seasons can outweigh the costs of freighting.

In Canada you can find domestic bananas, but I can't imagine replicating the necessary growing conditions with woodfired greenhouses is better than freighting from the tropics (but I'll get some sparingly): https://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/meet-the-farmers-growing-banan...

Wow, that’s cool! I checked for The Netherlands aswell and it turns out we’re also growing our own bananas [0] with the first harvest being two years ago! It seems to be a research initiative to find new ways to cultivate bananas that are not susceptible to soil molds. > Eating local is only efficient and sustainable if you're sticking to what's in season or keeps well. Long term refrigerated storage, water-sourcing and indoor growing to extend seasons can outweigh the costs of freighting. Agreed! I think that’s why it’s so hard to just call farmers markets inefficient, though. Atleast, without research into how efficient they are. There’s so many arguments that can make it sound logical that they’re either more or less efficient than a grocery store. It could go either way. [0]: https://nederbanaan.nl/ (I hate what they’re doing with their font. Double letters being some extremely elongated version of the single letter?)

> I’d be surprised if those bananas didn’t arrive on some freight ship. Talk about inefficiency!

Freight ships are extremely efficient.

Yes, definitely! However, bananas will need refrigerated containers. I unfortunately can’t find clear numbers on the freight shipping emissions itself but transporation accounts to up to 70% of emissions. [0]

[0]: https://www.fao.org/3/i6842e/i6842e.pdf

As someone who goes to farmers markets, that is absolutely not why we go.

We go because the food is better, fresher, and often it has things you won't find in a supermarket.

I think people with the means go to farmers markets to make the utterly joyless but necessary trip to the grocery into a kind of fun and interesting simulacrum of an old-time open-air market

That's a factor, but also the food is better. I eat a lot of eggs for example; I pay a bit more than I would in the store for a flat (30x) at the farmer's market because they're not washed or refrigerated. They keep longer and (imho) taste and cook better.

I agree with you about recoiling from this. I'm very interested in economics and have noted how the strategies they discuss drive or lose sales (product mix etc.), but the inevitable conclusion of this approach is to establish your own supermarket and drive everyone else out of business. I'm willing to pay more in time and convenience for a more interesting food buying experience and the ability to talk directly with food producers.

why are the eggs washed and refrigerated in North America?

Eggs in US are refrigerated because they are washed, and they spoil quickly once washed. They are washed as a convenience to consumers, who otherwise would have to thoroughly wash the eggs before cracking the shells.

Washed to reduce risk of residual bacterial contamination from the chicken (and handling/contact after laying). I don't think consumers of unwashed eggs wash them before hand since they're going to discard the shell and cook the egg, but in theory, they should wash their hands after cracking them and before touching any more food that isn't going to be cooked.

Also safer to eat raw if they were washed.

Taiwan study: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S09567...

US study: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/15553650/

But some older US studies from late 60s early 70s found no difference between the two (but maybe washing was different then):

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/5774767/

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8561600/

I've never washed an egg in my life and don't worry about food poisoning from this. The risk of the food part getting contaminated in the brief moment when the shell is broken seems vanishingly low. I think it has more to do with people not liking that there's occasionally a feather or speck of sawdust or chicken poop on the outside of the shell.

I believe the rules are more lax so higher bacterial levels are allowed.

It's one of those everyday things that is surprisingly different. It is common to keep uncooked eggs in the refrigerator at home.

Farmers markets vary from country to country, but I'll provide context from my home country.

I went to the farmers market on a weekly basis. I prefer the farmers market because unlike the supermarkets, the produce is fresher, it is more local, it is much cheaper, and I get to know who produces the food that I eat. I care about organic food, and unless I went to the farmer's market that was explicitly for organic food (though less cheap), talking to the farmers would help me understand how they farm and all the nuance around it.

Anyhow, this is obviously not more efficient than a trip to the supermarket: it takes more time and I had to go at a specific time and location. However, I don't go to the farmers market in pursuit of efficiency. I do so because I want to support small farmers in my area, I want to eat fresher, and I cherish a tighter relationship with the food that I eat and the people who produce it.

I do understand your point of view on efficiency is meant as a broader observation, but I find that it misses the points of farmers markets that are at odds with the pursuit of efficiency: localism, conviviality, and, give or take, qualities about the food itself.

The local nature of farmers’ markets is important for many people, I suspect. Regardless of actual impact it feels good to support small farmers within driving distance.

Maybe I wasn't clear, but my point of view is that efficiency is — rightly — not an important feature of farmers markets (at least to me or people I know), so I'm put off by this paper that is trying to somehow optimize them using POS data. The argument is that this way of looking at farmers markets seems to miss why people patronize them, which is closer to the points you bring up and much less about efficiency. Though as others point out there are probably cases where the FM is more or less efficient than a supermarket, or more well-stocked, my point still stands that the paper feels like it's aiming at something most people aren't asking for.

Ah, yes - I agree. Thank you for clarifying.

Also the vendors do it because low volume sales directly to consumers is a lot more enjoyable than negotiating with supermarkets. Vendors are people too.