New York’s attorney general says SiriusXM’s cancellation process is illegal
theverge.com
theverge.com
Want to cancel your memebership?? ... well, please drive to the nearest LA Fitness and try to find a manager ... not a rep taking new members but an actual manager, the reps can't help you to cancel. I went twice to my neighborhood LA Fitness to try to cancel my membership and the manager was 'not available at the moment'.
https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/news/press-releases/2023/03/...
https://www.ftc.gov/system/files/ftc_gov/pdf/p064202_negativ...
https://consumer.ftc.gov/consumer-alerts/2023/03/pros-and-co...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9CWbc6pekd8&t=1310s ("We have a complaint database, we collect information, and are always eager for information" -- FTC Chair Lina Khan at Y Combinator)
More of a value-based pricing thing, LA fitness costs more per month than Planet Fitness and is also a much smaller market.
Somewhat tangent, but everyone says "nvidia doesn't play nicely on Linux", I've never seen that! I've installed cuda, switched to cuda drivers/nvidia proprietary (non-cuda) drivers, FOSS Nouveau drivers, ran x11, wayland, never seen a bona fide issue. I'm not denying others' experiences, but dont make up your mind before you try. worst I've seen is laptops that have dual video cards (nvida + intel, for instance), but that's on par with any other Linux snafu you could have, it goes with the territory.
Apparently there's a thing called a "force post" that the merchant can do, which blasts right through Privacy.com's veil. I didn't understand this until they explained it to me:
> From: Sigourney (Privacy)
> Jun 1, 2022, 5:21 PM EDT > Hi, [Name]
> I've been reviewing your dispute and wanted to touch base with you to explain what happened.
> It appears that the disputed charge is a "force post" by the merchant. This happens when a merchant cannot collect funds for a transaction after repeated attempts and completes the transaction without an authorization — it's literally an unauthorized transaction that's against payment card network rules. It's a pretty sneaky move used by some merchants, and unfortunately, it's not something Privacy can block.
> We are refunding the transaction to the original funding source used for this purchase. You should see this refund reflected in your bank statement in the next 5 business days. However, please note that since this merchant uses force posts, they will continue to do this monthly until the subscription is cancelled. Please contact them to have the subscription cancelled.
> Let me know if you have any questions or concerns!
Okay, so Privacy refunded it, and I'm not clear whether they ate that cost or if they pulled some lever to claw-back the money from the NYT, but the fact that this is even possible in the first place is alarming, and it completely shattered my idea of what Privacy.com is even good for.
They somehow sucked $25 right through that.
This is all like trying to cancel an apartment lease by not paying your rent for a few months.
You might get lucky and they decide it’s not worth it to pursue it, but they still have a legal claim to that money.
No, it’s not.
No, it might be a tort. It is almost never (the few exceptions are things like failure to pay child support) a crime.
There's a contract between LA fitness and someone commiting fraud with my CC. My identity can't be stolen because I still have it - LA Fitness has been defrauded by a 3rd party and they shouldn't involve me in their mess.
If you've been going for nine months, good luck. They'll pull up all the photos they automatically took of you entering the doors to check in.
In this case, your argument was that you never had a contract with them in the first place. But this would be hard to believe if you actually used their services. Your cancellation email would undermine this argument even more, as you don't request cancellation if you don't have a contract.
So a court could perfectly well decide that the gym acted in breach of the law by making it deliberately hard to cancel, but that you acted in breach of the law too by stopping payment without even trying to cancel.
If you argue that you made your best effort to cancel, as documented by the email, that would be a more convincing argument I think (not a lawyer tho) but that's a different argument than claiming there never was a contract at all.
Obviously, nowhere in the communications with the gym I'd acknowledge there is any contract. It's no different than going to a grocery store: just because I've been using it for years doesn't mean there's any contract, even if the grocery stores believes so.
I’d know, I’ve won 17 Nobel prizes.
It's far from ideal, and the process should be easier but keeping the membership is costing you actual money and a solution is possible with a little extra effort. That effort shouldn't be necessary but we live in the world that exists not the world that should exist.
:)
1) "I can't believe you're paying that much. You should have called us sooner for a discount." (Blaming the victim? Classy.)
2) "According to our database, you can't get Fios at your address." "I have it. I'm using it right now." "That can't be correct, our database doesn't show it." (Is this the same database that can't tell me what the monthly taxes are going to be when I sign up? It might be time for a different database vendor.)
3) "You really don't want to switch to fiber. Cable has a higher signal strength because it's electrical instead of optical." (I... guess that's true. 0 coulombs of charge pass through the fiber optic cable each second, which is much lower than any other technology!)
There was also something in there about how I don't really want symmetric Internet because asymmetric is better. That one I actually argued with; I have no argument for their database being out of date but them trusting it, or the signal strength thing... but uploading fast is actually important to me. I mentioned that I write software for a living and he didn't press me that much on it, which was nice.
This article reminds me that I need to write to the FTC. This is all flat-out lying, which should be illegal. Obviously, you aren't going to scam someone that's worked at 2 fiber ISPs, but someone less technical probably believes their arguments.
In the end, the 15 minute call was probably the most entertainment I've had in years. Very rarely do people confidently lie to my face, so it was a fun experience. However, if the FTC wants to put everyone in prison for this, I say that's a great idea.
I keep getting "SECOND NOTICE" physical mail from scammers who have 1. never sent a first notice and 2. never had any business relationship with me (they have been trying to reach me about my car's warranty). Those make me so furious that I always report them as mail fraud.
I got the calls to stop by changing the phone number on my account. For e-mail/physical mail, there was an opt out that I found and to my surprise, they actually stopped.
But yeah, it was ridiculous. I'd get mail a minimum of once a week asking for me to come back. So much wasted paper.
It looks like they use sentiment analysis to assess whether they can use poor excuses to hassle you out of cancelling.
I don't trust any business to act responsibly with any information I give them, so I also use a lot of virtual cards and spoofed email addresses (actually I just use a catchall on my domain most of the time which is less secure I guess, but does most of what I need).
Privacy.com also has a browser extension and a mobile app. So it's easy to create/manage virtual credit cards per service. You can also create single use virtual credit cards that automatically close after a single transaction with a limit that you can set.
Using privacy.com requires me to give them access to my bank, and I lose points, cashback, any charge back protection.
I had tried Plaid at first, but quickly switched when I found out that they would watch your bank balance and disable your Privacy account if it went below $50. They would require you to prove a balance of at least $50 in order to enable the account again. Fortunately, both of the other methods don't really care, and as long as you disconnect Plaid while your balance happens to be over $50, your account will stay enabled.
Their documentation may provide more current details than I can though.
https://support.privacy.com/hc/en-us/articles/7970157169943-...
It’s well known how annoying this process is with deal communities, to the point that everyone recommends using temporary cards (like Privacy) to avoid the hassle with cancellations.
Unfortunately that doesn’t stop the mountain of sales outreach they’ll try after you’re no longer a subscriber.
Obviously, that'd be abused, but man, all these lawless corporations acting with impunity to common decent regulation enforcement makes some aweful work for no particular value to society.
That's nice! Can you suggest one (or more) services you like?
Does it have to be in the state you live in? (ex: matching the driver license address)
They have a bunch of addresses for you to pick from, and it works the same way for any other similar service, so check around and see if one has addresses that you like. The keyword is "mail forwarding service".
For US addresses, there's a form you have to sign and get notarized to authorize them to handle your mail, because USPS does not fuck around with people illegally handling someone's mail.
It often takes less time and way less mental energy than a phone call.
Really now? Preparing a physical package and dropping it off at a physical location to be picked up and delivered is faster and more efficient than speaking into a wireless device for a few minutes?
Perhaps that's why they're being sued?
That's what I said. You have to create a physical letter and drop it off. Not everyone can just walk over to their mailbox and stick an outgoing letter in there for the delivery truck to pick up; I have the privilege, but it absolutely hasn't been common everywhere I've lived.
You don't have to drop anything off in order to make a phone call, you don't even have to get up if you already have your phone.
The USPS maintains a pretty wide network of collection boxes. In a city you'd be hard pressed to not find one very close to you and most large apartment buildings have their own mail drops. There doesn't seem to be any "privileged" access issues here.
Point is.. the differences are so small.. that the decision is going to be made by subjective preference in most cases, and trying to suggest that there's an objectively correct solution is easily disproved.
For me, as someone with ADHD, the time it takes to do something means absolutely nothing compared to the amount of mental energy it takes to even try. It's different for everyone.
I can walk to my mailbox and put the little metal flag up in a couple minutes. I can't be put on hold or have the conversation drag on for 40+ minutes, as some in the complaint stated. No need to make this hard.
Yes, one of my comments posted three hours before yours described how I can indeed drop off mail at my mailbox to be picked up by the postal service. But before I do that, I have to find an envelope, paper, write or print a letter, seal it and address it and then leave my house to go drop it off at the mailbox. It's within walking distance, but notice the number of steps there are compared to picking up your phone, calling someone up and just saying "cancel my subscription" however many times they require.
One idea that keeps coming to mind is that the company should be forced to pay for the customer's time. I don't know how to handle this in the general case but for things like cancelling a subscription, making a warranty claim or fixing some other service issue that isn't the customer's fault the company should be required to pay for any time spent. You ask me 30min of questions before letting me unsubscribe? I look forward to my $50 in the mail next week. My warranty claim requires 3 calls and 2h to resolve? I'll take $200.
Obviously implementing this would be super difficult. What if the customer talks slowly or ambiguously to get more money? But I feel that the core idea has merit. If the company is wasting my time they should be forced to compensate me.
I started using the virtual cards from Privacy.com, and only authorizing the original purchase. its been a game changer.
Then the ball's in their court. You're happy to let them keep charging you, it's an investment.
I bet that would get them off their asses.
I wish they'd focus more on growing their technology (e.g. a macOS app). They just did a big rewrite on all the platforms, seemingly toward this goal; I hope they keep going down that path.
If the government forces them to adopt more modern subscription practices, I think _more_ people would use their platform, not less.
I bought a new car with a 3 month trial period and it ended last week.
You helped me to dodge a bullet.
https://cloudcovermusic.com/music-for-business/siriusxm-radi...
Just repeating "No, I just want to cancel" and nothing else doesn't help, either.
On the flip side, they have offered me ridiculous deals. As of right now I have the Music Showcase subscription for 2 vehicles (meant to be $13.99/mo each) for "$7.99 for 6 months, for both vehicles" - as in $7.99 for the entire 6 months, not per month, and for both vehicles, not each.
The only way to cancel was to call a US 800 number. I don't even know if you can call 800 numbers from outside the USA.
Just stop payments on the Card, I have done this with every “can’t cancel even though I didn’t sign a long-term contract”
None of the comments are sponsored or anything, but Privacy seriously is the hidden cheat code of using cards online, and the reason why you see so many mentions of it is because it prevents exactly these kinds of shady practices from working.
I think these companies have gotten wise to the Streisand effect and no longer try to block discussion, they just very carefully make sure that a very active *offtopic* discussion dominates so people are distracted.
You can also pretty much perennially keep your sub at $1/week w/o talking to a rep just by starting the cancellation flow when the promo rate nears expiration.
For anyone else looking to do this, the trick is to choose "Other" instead of "Too expensive" or "My rate is going up" as the reason for cancelling. The later will just result in them trying to sell other standard subscription offers to you.
Just to be sure I contacted their customer support to see if there was a way to cancel online. They confirmed that there was not, and then had the gall to say that this is because it's better for customers this way.
The content itself is good but I will never ever give money to a company that treats its paying customers this way.
Substack probably has a similar customer base and does things the right way. A paid subscription can be cancelled with an easy to find button. The money I would have spent on The Economist instead goes to several substack authors that I like.
Then they made their paywall super hard and they make you call and cancel. I can still get around it anyway and I hate being logged in and tracked.
The rep was pleasant but had trouble understanding why a paying user would cancel because of paywalls.
They seemed to think I was in need of IT troubleshooting (but perhaps my brain is in need of it).
Pretty scummy stuff.
SiriusXM is a holding company that operates many products, some of which are sold in Europe, and in California, so as a company they are beholden to both GDPR and CCPA.
The only other major service I can see is Pandora - which also does not have a presence in Europe.
I’ve had satellite radio, and when I think of SiriusXm, at the front of my mind is what a pain in the ass it is to cancel. We bought a new car this year, and I didn’t even activate the free trial because I didn’t want the hassle of canceling later. Think about that: the UX is so bad, there are customers that won’t even use it if you give it to them.
It's terrible that in order to do something as simple as "I want to cancel this service", you have to scream and make legal threats of retribution.
These are policies put in by terrible and shit capitalists to "make friction" of people leaving. But that's not all it does... It also introduces tremendous emotional labor (the rank and file employees) being screamed at by soon-to-be-former customers. Customers know that screaming gets heard, and responded to. Being decent gets you abused. But doing this pushes a large toll on the non-policy-making employees, who are exposed to massive emotional and sometimes physical abuse.
I do blame the companies in setting up policies that screaming at the bottom employees 'gets shit done'. It's a choice by the companies that force that issue. But screaming retains rights, like "cancellation", or "being made whole when a problem occurs". It's all top-driven bullshit that screwing the non-loud people makes more money.