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Comment by apexalpha | Hacker News Reader

I understand the ridicule that the EU gets sometimes, and especially so when trying to regulate stuff like AI where it seems the EU wants to regulate more than to create start ups etc...

But this is one thing the EU just nailed the hammer into the wood immediatly, and rightly so.

I can't even remember the time it was. Maybe 2013? 2014? They just set a standard and everyone, even Tesla, adopted it.

Every single EV can plug into every charger. Whether it's a public one, a private at the office, a Tesla supercharger or a home charger at your home. Plug and go!

Glad to see NA finally agrees on a standard now. This can only help EV adoption. Especially given the sorry state of other chargers than Tesla's over there.

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CCS2 is terrible, I'd hate to be forced to use that giant bulky connector and cable. The EU got it wrong. Design by committee always sucks.

It was designed by VW I think, who handed it over to other car companies so there could be a universal connector.

The reason it's bigger is because it supports 3-phase power, which NACS does not. 3-phase power is a big thing in Europe.

This is very true about 3 phase, but I have heard that there is interest in it being used in EU for AC charging in public garages because it can handle anything up to 277 volts vs J1772 which can only do 208/240. So they can give it 1 of the 3 phases @ 220V and it will work unlike J1772. Allegedly.

But I kind of doubt it will go anywhere when they've been forcing CCS2 on everyone.

The CCS2 AC-only connector (the one for normal charging at home, destination charging and so on) already supports 3-phase with up to 480V phase-to-phase, up to 22kW. It's larger than the NACS connector — there are two additional large pins — but not unwieldy.

so much so that I have a 22kW 3 phase charger at home. (AC, type 2)

3 phase is stupid. DC or bust.

Do you know what you are talking about. Can't decide whether you are joking or whether you really think people should charge via DC in their homes

The CCS Type 2 plug was designed by Mennekes - it's even referred to as "Mennekes plug" in some places.

I stand corrected! Thanks

It is a horrible, heavy connector.

It's big, but it really doesn't matter in practice. Yes, J1772 looks nicer and is easier to handle, but it can't pump as much wattage as CCS2, and in the end that's watt (:P) matters.

It matters when it's -20C and the cable can't bend

Honestly hasn't been an issue to me.

I'd also like to point out that that's really only true with cables designed to carry currents that can't be supported by J1772 anyway...

I've used both the US Tesla plug and CCS2. CCS2 is bulkier and heavier but it makes no difference in the daily life. A standardized connector is also a lot nicer than dealing with adapters.

Serious question is every EU charger outlet billed in a common way, like with cash, an app, debit/credit card, in car screen, with a payment screen, or preconfigured to bill seamlessly?

Seems like the billing issues at non Tesla chargers in the US were a large part of the issues..

Here in Germany at least, most chargers accept RFID cards for billing, and basically all through an app.

My only problem with it is that the app that comes with my company's card is total crap (often won't start to charge, and then sees the charging port as being in use for like 5-10 minutes, so you have to wait that long for a second attempt. It's HORRIBLE.)

I can only talk for France. The payment is not standardized. Tesla is plug-and-pay like in the US but others are not. Every charging stations brand has its own app with the same issues as the US, where it may or may not work that day.

There is no mandated billing method, but the ability to pay without registering an account is mandated. Additionally every charger has a unique id with a QR code.

Usually you either just plug it in (first party charger) or just scan the QR code with your favorite charging app which will handles the billing (third party charger).

I don't have that in my country, so that probably is not mandated in the EU or is very recent.

A law was passed earlier this year that means mandatory card/contactless payment, and prices clearly shown (as opposed being hidden in an app). Unclear exactly when it will be enacted though.

Thanks, what do the unbanked do in the EU? Some local cities have banned cashless stores, wonder if this will apply to EV chargers which seem to be unmanned.

>Thanks, what do the unbanked do in the EU?

Prepaid debit cards? Or otherwise charging at home / workplace.

I doubt there is any overlap between "unbanked" people an people who can buy EVs

Whilst I cannot speak for the entirety of the EU, at least in the Nordics, I'd say life would be pretty hard in many other aspects if you're unbanked. Just getting a salary would become problematic. Very few employers would pay out salary in cash.

Public charging would be far down the list there.

Thanks all who replied!

In practice, it seems most charging stations I see here in Switzerland have 3 different plugs: AC, CCS DC, and CHAdeMO. And half of them have an attached cable and half are BYO.

>Every single EV can plug into every charger.

Nit picking, but there's a bunch of Nissan Chademo still around. Like my Leaf. I'm a bit perplexed that Nissan is still selling new Chademo cars here, since it's on the way out. I very rarely need DC charging though, and there's still lots of Chademo locations if I do. That aside, the Leaf is a wonderful car.

As a fellow Leaf owner, I agree it's really perplexing and frustrating. I was looking at what else Nissan are doing, and while they've gone for CCS on the Ariya (and also got the active battery thermal management), frankly I don't want or need an SUV.

DalasEVRepair on YouTube is testing a Chinese CCS to CHAdeMO adapter. If that ever becomes a reliable product, then NACS to CHAdeMO would be an incremental change.

Convert 50kW by random cheap adapter, it looks like a one of the most dangerous thing.

And Europe even did it better than China. Connectors are also standardized in China but AC and DC use completely different connectors. And the AC connector had enough pins for 3-phase power but two were unused.

Eh, I think if NA had forced a standard quickly (which the US has actually sort of done with the infrastructure bill), it would've been CCS which has a lot of downsides

Any downside other than bigger plug?

And plug is bigger partially because it needs to support 3 phases, which isn’t a thing in USA houses (while common across the whole world) but is a thing at industrial locations. Tesla plug doesn’t work with 3 phases.

CCS1 used in North America is only single phase.

CCS2 used in Europe (and elsewhere) supports three phase.

The electricity grid has three phases in the US right? Are devices seldom connected to three phases?

Three phase power is out there but you never see it in residential and rarely in commercial. It's pretty much just an industrial kind of thing.

I have two 3-phase 480V 16A sockets in my 50m2 European apartment.

I disagree with the rarely in commercial. It's extremely common in commercial environments from what I've seen.

Bigger plug is a big one, like you mentioned. 3 phase isn't an issue in the US version IIRC, but it still has more pins than NACS to maintain backwards compatibility.

Thicker + heavier cables too (not sure if that's required by CCS or just an implementation difference w/ NACS). Together that makes CCS much more unwieldy than a gas pump.

The NACS latching mechanism is a lot better- latch failures are a big part of why so many J1772 chargers are broken and unusable.

Huh? If anything this disproves your point. Industrial players quickly (all things considered) converged on a superior format. I usually agree with you on standardizing stuff like this but this isn't an example of top down standardization leading to better outcomes. Not necessarily worse, but not better either.

Well there are now thousands and thousands of chargers in the US that have to be retrofitted to NACS, if possible.

On top of that many cars will now need adapters to charge at public infrastructure.

And in the meanwhile many people still can't charge at every public charger because they have CCS or Chademo or Tesla and the charger has another one.

> converged on a superior format

I don't have any skin in this game (not American, currently own a Petrol car in SEA and a Diesel in Australia), but isn't the move to NACS almost entirely driven by manufacturers wanting (customer) access to the better-maintained and faster charging network, rather than some intrinsic benefit of the plug itself?

Superior in what way?

CCS is a worse standard than NACS. The connector is huge. Also CCS locks the cable on both sides (charger and car), so a bad charger or cable can strand your car. NACS locks only on the car side.

Both have up and downsides to them. The NACS is physically smaller yes, but CCS2 supports 3-phase power, which NACS does not.

In the end the most important thing it that you can charge when you want to. So I'm glad there's now a standard in NA. And congrats to Tesla, they've earned it.

The CCS2 does not have the issues of the CCS1 but is as big that is the only downside. But if you want to fit 3 phase AC charging you need a big plug.

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