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Comment by jwestbury | Hacker News Reader

Go ask a teacher about how many hours they work -- it's more than the 40 hours a week we in tech work, generally. And their summers are often full of required continuing education courses which they pay for out of pocket, much like many other professions which are desperately understaffed (see: counselors).

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How many hours a week do they spend drilling leetcode or being on call. On maintaining their homelab because they need to keep up with the latest fashionable tech nonsense?

If you ask anyone, they'll tell you they're busy because that's the socially acceptable thing to say. If I'm honest, I don't do that much work (I tend to believe that's actually why we create and maintain all of these machines - so we don't have to work very much, but I'm apparently a disagreeable sort), but I still say that I'm keeping busy because if I said that I'm basically lazy and just want to meditate or watch TV most of the day away, people (particularly my employer) might take issue with that.

The extra hours a week teachers spend have to do with lesson planning, grading, etc. which is directly related to their job unlike leetcode or your homelab or whatever, those aren't equivalent at all.

They say that, but how many times do they need to lesson plan if they teach the same subject year after year? And doesn't the curriculum rather decide the plans anyway? We had scantrons and other grading tech way back when I was in school or even just having the kids grade each others work; there are strategies for that as well.

My cousin is a teacher and manages that job plus a couple side businesses plus 3 kids. Somehow he finds the time.

scantrons and grading each other's work only makes sense if your assignments are multiple choice, which is probably the least effective way of teaching in my opinion. As soon as the assignment requires any essay portion where you can get partial credit that breaks down. Curricula change every year, and relying on whatever standardized test your students are required to pass to develop your plans is a good part of why US education is lambasted elsewhere in the developed world, I'm glad your cousin can run 2 side businesses while teaching but I'd rather pay teachers more so they could put the effort into the kids, because there's a staggering difference between the ones that phone it in and the ones that don't.

I think it's entirely possible that the belief in education is one of the many beliefs that I've lost as I get older. Or perhaps like people say they believe in god, but not organized religion, I don't believe in organized education. That reflects my own experience I suppose; I wasn't much of a student, but once I actually got put into a position where I needed to learn things (a computer infrastructure/software engineering type job), I learned them well enough I suppose.

One takeaway from the covid lockdowns I took is it seems that to a first approximation, school is where children go for babysitting and perhaps learning happens there somehow. That would reflect my memories (plus it was a good place to score drugs).

I didn't think much of the system at the time, and even less upon reflection some years later, and it's not a system I'd want to put kids through, but I seem to say that about an increasing number of aspects of the modern world, so it's likely I'm just some sort of antisocial malcontent.

Leetcode so you can get big bucks working as a programmer? Teachers put in extra hours because they see a kid in their class who will suffer through life if they don’t intervene. Compare your motivations to those of teachers, and leave the comparison at that.

I'm not a programmer and I said I don't actually work that hard. I do think that teachers work harder than I do on any given day, but I don't believe that they're as busy as they might have you believe, and they do still get summers off which I do not.

Have you like, talked to an actual teacher? Or is this just "common sense" posturing about something you haven't actually looked into at all?

I'm regularly confused by people whose entire knowledge of classrooms comes from being a student, who nevertheless feel like they are experts and have all of the right answers.

I know several teachers, a few of them in my family and a few of them in the group of friends I kept in touch with after highschool. Some of them work very hard during the school year, and some of them reuse the same lesson plans for years and say the others are working too hard. All of them don't work for most of the summer break, but they all do some work particularly in the first and last weeks.

Do you know why teachers get paid so little? Because there's a surplus of people who want to be teachers; actually getting a teaching job, let alone one at a good school, is a serious accomplishment. The schools that have a hard time keeping teachers are the ones with shitty students (due to shitty parents) which burn out teachers fast. The ones who can hack it at those schools use their experience to seek employment at better schools (positions at good schools are so competitive that having experience before applying is almost essential.)

> there's a surplus of people who want to be teachers

What on earth?

- https://www.npr.org/2023/03/23/1164800932/teacher-shortages-... - https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/education/2023/10/17/tea...

> I know several teachers

So, because 'some' of them don't work very hard, it's your 'belief' that all teachers aren't as busy as they say they are? Or are you now back-tracking your earlier comments? Does re-using lesson plans mean that those teachers aren't grading course work, or doing other activities, or are you assuming that "lesson plans" is the sum total of any extra work they may be doing?

I feel like this is just a cop out comment (particularly with the mealy 'I totally know some people' as evidence), moreso given the clear lack of understanding of the acute teacher shortages in this country, particularly in rural areas and particularly exacerbated over the last 4 years that you nevertheless think not only doesn't exist but is actually a surplus, in complete contradiction of literally all available evidence.

There are no teacher shortages at good schools, getting one of those jobs is extremely competitive. Shitty schools constantly lose teachers and need new ones.

And to reiterated, the difference between a good school and a bad school is the quality of the student body, who reflect the quality of their parents. It's not funding. Often the worst schools have the most funding because people think that will make the school better, but over-funding schools won't fix kids who are fucked up by their parents.

Anyway, you asked for comments from people who know teachers. I know teachers, but I'm not here to back up your preconceptions. Deal with it.

> There are no teacher shortages at good schools, getting one of those jobs is extremely competitive. Shitty schools constantly lose teachers and need new ones.

This is not supported by any evidence, unless you assume that all rural schools, for instance, are "shitty schools". But hey, let me throw yet another link you'll not look at while repeating things that are patently untrue:

https://www.texastribune.org/2022/07/25/texas-teacher-shorta...

I've no idea why you're talking about funding, as if that has anything to do with anything I've said, but article after article suggests the absurdly low teacher pay is a major issue - talking about ephemeral 'funding' in that context is dishonest.

But sure, you "know" teachers. You're not answering the questions because... you don't want to back up my preconceptions that are based on direct experience, er, I mean, "preconceptions"? Um, ok.

> but I'm not here to back up your preconceptions.

Says the guy who just keeps repeating himself when faced with linked evidence his preconceptions are incorrect.

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