Ask HN: Terrified I wont find another job | Hacker News Reader

Ask HN: Terrified I wont find another job

108 pointsdookahku90 comments

currently in bay area. quit 10 months ago because of health reasons. 110% better now, thank goodness

i've mostly done lifecycle software engineering for the last 10 years (python c++ javascript). I rarely got to develop features; happened a couple times in the last year. I enjoyed bug fixing but it's such a rare position to find. i've gotten a few interviews, more coming.

i've never gotten a job through a referral. i don't really know anybody but going to meetups is on the agenda. does meetup.com even work anymore? not sure how that works, tho...social anxiety+cptsd+autism makes it so difficult.

how do you even find 'mentors' ? no one has ever helped me like that, it's inconceivable.

I've been grinding leetcode more, and am getting better ( dont have to look at answers as much), studying SD question/answers. working on side projects that are technical enough

But i'm so scared i wont ever find another job. im thinking of just going to trucking school, but i like software a lot.

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Whenever you need just one of something (job, relationship etc), it's going to look hopeless, right up to the moment that you get that one thing, and then you'd wonder why you ever worried.

You have the experience. There is demand for your experience. You're going to be fine. Just keep applying. Try not to waste your energy on worrying, and redirect it towards sending out applications etc. Easier said than done, I know.

that's a good point...i have this fear because i've had terrible experience interviewing. i've been closer to the edge than this before...

one reason I stayed at my previous place for 10 years was because i just couldn't interview well...i know better about modern interview practices, which is why i practice so much ( 2-3 hours per day). it feels so far away tho.

I understand, though I doubt you could possibly be worse than me at interviewing :) I remember once when I absolutely blanked out and didn’t answer a single question, when it was just simple questions in subjects that I knew very well. It was super embarrassing. Yet somehow I survived, and here I am doing just fine.

If I were you, I wouldn’t put off interviewing just to get better at leetcode. There are all kinds of interviewing styles, and I bet you’d get hired sooner than you think if you were to do the interviews parallel to practicing.

Wishing you the very best!

What are you referring to when you say "modern interview practices" and how are you practicing?

Leetcode

You nailed it. I was in a similar position not so long ago and I began to feel eerily hopeless. It was irrational. I got a lot of offers eventually. But damn it felt bad at times.

I’ll admit, most offers weren’t what I hoped for. The market isn’t great. I held out (with white knuckles) and eventually landed with a great team, product, and compensation. In the week that I accepted the offer, I had 3 others on the table. When it rains it pours I guess.

It took a while and it seemed impossible at times. But that’s life. You keep at it. You make it work. Whatever you do, don’t give up because you think it’ll be too hard. You need to push that envelope a bit and really test it before bailing for trucking school. Don’t let self doubt limit you; let reality do that.

I feel for OP though. I’ve never had a hard time finding work in my life. I’m the most competent and valuable I’ve ever been, yet it was a legitimate struggle. That feels very, very bad. Especially with a family to take care of.

But yeah, it’ll work out. It’ll take a lot of shitty interviews, a lot of applications and cover letters, self doubt, all of it. But you just have to do it.

Good luck!

Well put. Thanks for explaining it succinctly.

> Whenever you need just one of something (job, relationship etc), it's going to look hopeless, right up to the moment that you get that one thing, and then you'd wonder why you ever worried.

Mad props. I’m old but never had that insight. Wish I had.

In 2014, I relocated to the Bay Area with my spouse and one-year-old child, armed only with $9k USD and 2 bags of belongings for the whole family. I had secured a job, but unexpectedly, the company ran out of funds within six months.

The first week after my termination, I was just lost in space and time, freaking out. Over the next two weeks, I applied to every possible software engineering job, sending at least a thousand emails. I spent all days long on the phone, switching ears when one became sore from holding the phone.

It took me only two weeks to find a new gig. In the end, I allowed myself a week to decompress and then joined the new company, four weeks after losing my previous position. The stress was intense. My bank account hovered between $3k-$6k, and the stakes were high. If I didn't secure a job soon, my family and I faced the real possibility of going under the bridge.

My advice to those in similar situations is this: don't let despair dominate your thoughts. Instead, think about your family, or imagine you have a child, or will have in the future, and now it's your time to prove you can do it.

I believe this mindset is crucial. IMO, intensive preparation for leetcode is less important in desperate times. It's better to continuously apply to jobs. Leetcode is more suitable when you're already employed and can afford to spend time on it, ideally over a span of six months to a year, to thoroughly tackle those 300 popular questions.

2014 was basically peak ZIRP and startup era. I don’t think this could be replicated today. I know way too many people from Google/Meta layoffs who are still looking despite willing to take pay cuts, just to keep the lights on.

Exactly. 2014 was also when rent in SF peaked.

Everyone, literally every person I know laid off at Google and Meta were subsequently rehired by the same company. It's strange.

Hired back as contractors? Hired back at < 80% of their previous total comp?

I agree, the market is indeed challenging at the moment. Thankfully, I'm in a more stable position now. Despite not actively seeking out opportunities, I still received 4 remote job offers at the beginning of 2023 (or was it late 2022, I forget).

These offers weren't particularly thrilling, and I even left one of the jobs after a month. Regarding Meta, they are actively hiring. I had an offer from them in January 2022, which I turned down.

Then, in September 2023, they reached out again, but this time with an on-site requirement. Being based in the SFBA, I have a strong preference for remote work and am unlikely to accept an on-site role, though it's reassuring to know it's an option if remote opportunities dry up.

As for the folks you mentioned who are struggling to find work, my first question would be about the intensity of their job search. If they've sent fewer than 1,000 applications in a month or so, I would question whether their efforts are truly exhaustive. Job search in today's market demands a high volume of applications and persistence.

From the other side, I wouldn't be surprised if it didn't produce any results, but would like to hear more details, since IMO there is a need for software engineers, since I know for sure companies are hiring.

>Being based in the SFBA, I have a strong preference for remote work

I would assume the opposite since meta is also based in sfba. If you were based in New Mexico instead this would make sense.

Funny, when I’ve been laid off, I’ve been relieved that there’s no kid depending on me for food and health insurance and no spouse to divorce me. I think I’d have a breakdown if that were the case, but I guess we’re all different.

Pressure and responsibility tend to motivate people.

The number of fatherless children suggests that that is not exactly a hard and fast rule.

Given enough pressure, anything will burst; I had a colleague kill himself after being unable to find good work, leaving a wife and daughter. Some of us just aren’t cut out for all that.

There are lots of government programs for kids if you don't work. Medicaid and SNAP for example.

I live with marginal disability in a state with 5 million uninsured people; I'm not taking any chances that depend on social safety nets.

This post title struck a chord with me. I was PIP'd from Amazon earlier this year and am currently on a medical leave which is going to end very shortly. I'm going to have to go back to work and probably will just take the severance and GTFO because culture in my org is toxic and unreasonable, and my first PIP was designed from the start to be impossible.

I was a high performer, but have no real mentors. I have a couple friends who can provide referrals, but their companies all have hiring freezes right now - as do many tech companies from the looks of things. It's every week I see another post on HN about a company doing layoffs, and I expect more to come.

Even if I could find the motivation to grind leetcode (goodness, I hate interviewing in tech), the economy and companies are currently in a very touchy and cautious state it would seem. I'm in a HCOL area and rents since COVID are at an all-time high, and to make matters worse I need to find a new apartment in the next few months (and no job = no approval, so that's fun..)

I know I will probably be best served by finding a less paying job with a lot less stress, but that isn't exactly an easy thing to narrow down.

I'm not exactly sure what I hoped to achieve by sharing this, but I suppose it's just nice to have some camaraderie in these times and know there are others struggling too.

It's been common knowledge in the industry for years now that Amazon routinely and periodically PIPs employees to cull their herd when it's convenient for them. Point is, don't let getting a PIP get you down, just move on and focus on companies that have a healthy work culture.

What's a PIP?

Performance improvement plan

Or Paid Interview Preparation.

I got PIP'd twice, passed the first and took the money the second time. Some advice from my experience.

Talk to your doc / therapist, you might be able to extend the medical leave.

Apartments may take into account your bank account balance as something that helps your approval.

If you decide to stay and do the PIP project, realize that it's really about putting a good plan together and executing to that plan, communicating when the plan has a problem etc. Try to remove ALL the ambiguities in the plan before building whatever it is and design each part at one level below where you'd normally do it to make sure you don't have things that come up that surprise you. Everything other than your PIP work doesn't matter - no CRs, no help with design specs, oncall, nothing. Make sure to get sleep and exercise - if you combine stress with lack of those two things you just make things doubly bad.

If you do pass the PIP, change orgs immediately. You need a new start without baggage (my mistake was I got re-orged under a manager that was instrumental in trying to PIP me previously, and then I stuck around to finish my current project instead of immediately leaving).

What do you mean "take the money" ? Is it some kind of payout to leave ?

In Amazon, you are intially put on Focus, i.e management start building a case against against your performance (Documentation).

Once focus period ends, you are given option to take Severance or Performance improvement plan (PiP).

That is dehumanizing.

it is, and if we ever get a software engineer union this is one of the first things we should target.

I appreciate the advice.

I've exhausted my 6 months under short-term disability and now I am trying to extend it under long-term, but it isn't looking good so far. But it doesn't matter, I need a new job ASAP to find a new apartment either way. And, as far as apartments, it will be hit-or-miss if they take my bank into account but it seems very unlikely it will be enough to satisfy them.

I'm not going to try the PIP - I know my management chain (several levels) want me to fail and to leave, and I'd rather have the extra severance than have to deal with the stress and then end up with less money after.

Some advice based solely on my experience, YMMV etc.

Re: Mentors - reach out to someone who you enjoyed working with in a previous role, looked up to, and would enjoy working with again. Just ask them to have a quick chat, and have specific questions about your job hunt ready - ask them to share their approach to a job search, share what you've done, and ask if they have any advice for improvement. If the chat goes well, you can ask if it's alright if you reach out again. You don't necessarily need a full "mentor", just some guidance.

Re: Referrals - This is not strictly about typical "referrals", but if you can have a chat with a recruiter, you often can similarly cut through initial screens / red tape.

I have had a ton of luck reaching out directly to in-house recruiters for roles I'm interested in on LinkedIn. They're often constantly on LinkedIn, frequently doing outbound, and IME they're often happy that someone reached out - and this can be more effective than spending an hour hand-crafting a cover letter. Keep the message to a couple sentences, share why you're interested in the company, and again, ask to have a quick chat.

Not to be dismissive of people in this position, but speaking as someone with a regular ass boring job outside of the bay area, saying you're "terrified" sounds like you're far more worried than you need to be. The standards at jobs around the country are so low, and people in general are so bad at their jobs.

You might not LIKE the other work that's out there, but you could always find a software dev gig, or IT analyst work, or whatever weird name orgs will come up with for the only thing that matters: A Job You're Qualified To Do.

I've never had a mentor either, and all I've done in my career in the last decade is just cast a very wide net over a major metropolitan area and showed up to whatever got back to me, and it's worked out very well for me despite the fact that I'm frankly very mediocre and dysfunctional in comparison to our country's top talent.

You know, this probably also describes me and my strategy (I’ve only ever lived in the city I was born in and I’ve just found work here as needed). Maybe I shouldn’t worry so much, but for various reasons I really need my health insurance, so layoffs are pretty nerve-wracking for me as well.

Yeah there is this parallel universe where you draw in connections and work the room etc. to hustle your way to great jobs. I am sure it is good and all but every job hunt for me starts with a job board or search engine and a fresh cv.docx and off we go.

Maybe but if you are in the Bay area you have to get paid a Bay area salary. They could move out of SF but that's hard too. You have to change job but also get a new place, change doctors, your kids school, your partner might need a new job etc.

Please describe how to 'always find a software dev gig'. I'm sending multiple applications a day, to dev and dev-related jobs, and I get mostly no response at all.

The freelance sites (I don't have a track record on any of them) are possibly even worse, it's clear most proposals aren't even looked at.

I live in a major metropolitan hub, have a degree, and spend time tailoring applications proportionally to my interest in the position. I look mostly at large companies and government agencies, especially if I get word they’re currently hiring a lot.

i would love a boring software job. Bug fixing is usually like that ('cept when it's not) :)

Software isn't done eating the world yet; it is worth hanging in there.

End of year is the worst time to be looking even in bullish markets; New Year is always when hiring picks up as the hiring managers are finished with their vacations, new budgets are in, and the summer vacation is too far away to mess up the process.

Pesonally I'd pick a "enjoyed bug fixing" over leetcode-prepped every time. My tip is to focus on soft skills; being amusing in interviews has always been my superpower :)

You mention some great points but I'm not a fan of the "focus on soft skills; being amusing in interviews has always been my superpower" advice. That's not scalable and means nothing given the limited context.

Fair. I'm not suggesting he should focus on being amusing in interviews - just that soft skills have value and sometimes in surprising places. Time invested in them is unlikely to be wasted. Time spent grinding leetcode not so much.

His milage may vary; my main message is that we're still in the inflationary universe stage of professional computing so despite the current undeniable demoralising blip a career change is unlikely to be a good idea for someone who enjoys it.

I should also add that someone who spent 10 years in a role before taking an extended break is a much more interesting prospect than someone with lots of long gaps. They sound like they should be front of the queue when things warm up again.

The guy mentioned he has social anxiety and autism, the likelihood of him being able to improve his soft skills meaningfully without a long (and costly) therapy is unlikely to say the least.

Perhaps? Soft skills includes stuff like writing though, not just schmoozing.

I bet you'll find something.

It's really easy to assume that "bay area" means places like Meta, Apple, etc.. But there are others.

I'll take the opportunity to plug that at Stanford, we've got a small pile of open IT positions (42, per https://careersearch.stanford.edu/jobs/search/12458736), covering technologies as plain as Python & Java, to as weird as Oracle. Some positions are fixed-term, if you just want to 'get your feet wet'.

Another set of companies that folks often miss are the auto companies. For example, Ford has a posting for a Senior Simulation Software Engineer, job ID 20901, which wants someone with experience in C++ and Python. The job's location says Michigan, but if you dig in it also lists Ford's office in Palo Alto (in the Stanford Research Park) I know Toyota Research Institute is in Los Altos, though I don't know their open positions. And besides Tesla, there's also Rivian and Zoox.

The map at the bottom of https://stanfordresearchpark.com/community/ gives you a good overview of the types of companies in one chunk of Palo Alto. And there are many other places besides that!

If you're grinding leetcode and are working on side projects you're already in the top 10% of applications for me as a hiring manager. I'm not in the Bay Area so maybe competition's a bit more intense over there.

Besides being on the grind, what I like to see is that you've been working on / experimenting with tech outside the stack you were using for those 10 years at your previous job. Especially stuff that's hot right now (in your own perception), just to show that you're interested in using the best tools to improve your work.

From my experience as a hiring manager, getting referrals is nice and it has a good track record of getting good team members, but (at least for me) it's not enough to build a whole company from referrals alone. I still go through regular applications to fill out the roles, and I bet everyone else does too, so don't worry too hard about forcing things at meetups.

It will definitely be easier to get a job that way though so definitely give it a shot, especially since people at fun places to work will advertise their open vacancies more loudly than people at less fun places.

Not a hiring manager but I've interviewed/hired in the high tens to low hundreds of people on my own dime in the past decade. Many from cold applications. I intensely dislike this criteria and want to share my own:

People who perform really well at their job is who I want to hire. Solid skills, team player, proactive attitude. I have no proxy for that except digging down on recent projects and personality while talking to you. Do whatever you want in your downtime. Show those 3 things and you're golden even if your skills are a little misaligned or if you've been out of the game for a bit.

(Might apply better to smaller businesses where you're interviewing with the owner)

You've definitely hired more than me, and if you're interviewing as the owner of a company that makes you a hiring manager right? If not then I've got my definition wrong and I'm not one either.

Are you saying that if you've got one candidate who has not worked on personal projects and/or leetcode, and one who doesn't, and their backgrounds are similar otherwise, and you've only got time to call one, you'd flip a coin?

I'm not making any hiring decisions based on leetcode, I just think it's a signal that a candidate is serious about their work ethic. But from what I've seen the candidates who had impressive personal projects have more often been significantly more productive coders. Again, that doesn't mean it's a hiring decision, but it means putting the resume on top of the stack for me at least.

edit: also disclaimer I've literally never seen a resume that said the candidate had done leetcode. Maybe that's a thing that happens more at larger companies with more ambitious candidates?

I mean fair enough, all in the spirit of trying to help OP. I think your answer was definitely helpful and representative of many hiring processes.

Personally I can't remember a situation where side projects made a difference, except maybe for hiring interns. I care much more about learning how people behave in real work situations, to the point where side project isn't even a signal.

I don't obsess over perfect candidates either. I'll advertise/interview until I find someone competent and capable of growth. However those are rare enough (and the field in demand enough) that I haven't had to choose between candidates often. But if I do, I'll do my best to decide based on real work experience. Reality is messy, certainly I've bowdlerized my experience but I think that's directionally correct.

To summarize, I hope OP just goes at it and starts interviewing as much as possible after spending a few hours talking himself up. I'm sure he's good enough as it is to be hired. Same conclusion as you really :)

Apply to places, then apply more. If you're in a busy place like bay area, you'll get something in the end. And while I'm not advocating jumping between jobs too often, keep in mind that if you need / are worried about money, you can join some job you don't love and keep looking for better options. When I started at my first place, I sent ~200 applications and got 3 responses (although that was with little experience). If you're getting interviews already, you'll be fine.

Also, I don't know if you want to handle it like that, but if a candidate told me they're autistic ahead of time, I'd likely be prepared to handle the interview better / not be surprised by some behaviours. Not sure if that generalises to other places and I understand this is not an easy topic.

Use recruiters. They can probably get you in the door somewhere as a contractor, and from there on the trajectory is up (assuming you are any good).

Honestly, the worst part of my 6 months of job seeking after I resigned from my last job was that the interview loop is just soul crushing.

where does one find recruiters?

recently someone gave a talk about this topic, and he explained how he was not afraid of using recruiters or agencies, regardless of the cut they take. but he could not answer the question on how to actually find good recruiters.

I find the closest ‘Hays’ or ‘Morgan McKinley’ branch.

It’s not that I found a good recruiter immediately, but 6 months is a lot of time to try all of them.

To be honest, the only reason I’m aware some of them exist is because of the linkedin messages I get.

If you have 10 years of C++ experience, that’s 5 years more than the median employed C++ software engineer.

That might not be enough to get you fat FAANG cash. But, it will definitely get you “A Job”.

You mostly need to be able to talk like you have not been coasting at your previous job for the past 11 years. Get up to date with the C++ 20 standard and be able to speak intelligently about it and you’ll be doing better than most.

i'd be happy with a regular software job, for sure.

I wouldn't say sustaining engineering (the bugfixing) was 'coasting' exactly. It's hard work, like a a crime drama every week, day. it can be quite challenging. :)

Just to commiserate, I also had a health issue years ago that really threw my career off track. I managed to land a steady job after some long and stressful months and eventually got some treatment that got me back to 95% health-wise, but the job is way below what I think I'm capable of and it's really hard to get back out there and interview for something better. Unfortunately mentioning any kind of health issue during the interview process (typically when the associated resume gap comes up) seems to be a kiss of death, even with supposedly "enlightened" companies that rattle on about their great culture and acceptance. I recommend not mentioning health issues during the interview process at all if you can help it.

If anyone has a different viewpoint on this or has discovered some better way to approach this touchy topic while job hunting, I am quite open to input.

are health issues among those forbidden topics that an interviewer is not allowed to ask about?

i definitely agree that mentioning health issues is a bad idea.

but how does one explain gaps if they are caused by a hospital stay?

i don't have any such gaps, but in my CV i only mention years, not months, so one job ends in 2012 and the next one starts in 2013 regardless of the month where that actually happened. if i get any pushback on that, i'd see that as a sign of trouble. besides in any gap i was freelancing anyways.

I sympathise - I moved to Taiwan to be with my girlfriend and I'm having almost zero luck job hunting here so far; it's definitely not helped by the fact that my Mandarin is terrible, but at least I have plenty of free time to practise!

I wish you the best of luck; I went through this once before in my home country and it felt rough until I finally landed a good gig after months of nothing - hang in there and do whatever you can to look after your mental well being in the meantime.

I’d recommend looking for remote work and not jobs at local companies. Taiwan even has a special visa for those earning a minimal salary from a remote tech job with tax benefits. I don’t know what tech jobs pay in Taiwan but do know that salaries for graduates are very low, which is why so many young people moved to China to work in the 2010s.

Thanks for the tip; I've been trying that too but no luck so far - do you have any recommendations about where I could find that kind of work? Recruitment agents in my home country (UK) seem not to be interested.

Trucking is not bad, if you could do it good enough (I mean health reasons, not all people capable, for example many truck drivers I know, have issues with alcohol, because too much stress on roads).

But I think, even if AI grow will be moderate from now, we could not avoid autonomous trucks (4 level of autopilot, as defined in wikipedia) in nearest 5 years, and I think, in 2030s, autonomous trucks will literally eat people jobs.

I think, you will have extremely more chances, if you could become entrepreneur (now I mean, not by health but if you like this type of work). - Management, and decision making is very high valued now, and if you somewhere could run your own business, is even better.

Any way, in real life, people are not equal - choose way, where your weakness is minimal issue (or just not significant), but where your strengths will be total win.

Example, I also have some autistic issues. Once I have made fine print dump of 1200+ win32 functions (it is easy to intercept, but all of them have tricky interface with not big, but not simple and not straightforward structures, so I have looked in docs and on real data and to figure out, how to dump real data, not dynamic pointers to nowhere).

i've thought about that, trucking could be vulnerable to AI in the next few years...but after Starsky closed, I dunno. Lots of AV shops are kinda in doubt, but we'll see.

thanks for the advice.

BTW, about AV shops, even more interest thing happening - I hear, after just cup of years mass production Tesla EV's, appeared huge demand on EV mechanics.

I'm afraid I don't have any concrete job seeking advice for you, but if you love making software, now is not the time to bail. The cycle looks like it could be about to turn. I've seen this multiple times since the .com bubble.

Interest rates are probably at their peak. Speculation about interest rate cuts have begun. It's not long before tech companies start hiring again for fear of missing out on the best candidates.

> i've gotten a few interviews, more coming.

Assuming you're not completely socially inept, you're fine. It's those who don't even get interviews that I worry about because that suggests they don't have the experience needed to get the roles they're applying for.

The fact you're getting interviews suggests people feel you have the right skills, but interviews can be tough. You're often competing against several other people who often aren't any more skilled, but just "click" with the interviewer better so get the job.

My guess is that if you keep applying for roles and getting interviews and you'll find someone that will like what you're offering eventually. Don't lose hope.

The other thing I'd say is just remember this is largely a numbers game. I've seen enough bad hires to know that luck plays a significant role and getting hired isn't purely a reflection of experience. If you have 50 people apply for a role employers are not carefully weighing up the pros and cons of each candidate, instead they're making quick judgements based on a quick glance over your profile. Similar things tend happen during interviews, rarely will they invest in the time to carefully weigh up each candidate by ability. Instead, they're just looking to get a rough feel for each candidate's ability. You should use this to your advantage. Make sure the first paragraph of your resume/CV makes you sound great. Then when you get to the interview doing little things like dressing well, being enthusiastic about the role/company, and trying to keep the conversation flowing without too much awkwardness will help massively.

I think you're fine though. If you managed to get an offer after just a few interviews that would probably be more surprising honestly.

In a similar position. I stopped my life for a couple of years due to health issues. I'm in a slightly better spot now, where I can start looking for work and getting my career/life back on track. I don't have any connections or a public profile, so I can relate to the feeling that it's possible I might never get a job.

Despite all the talk, believe it or not, there are still open positions -- I work for a large telecom in the Bay Area, and I'm told we have 8,000 unfilled positions. But let's drill down a bit -- what is gone is the insanity -- we no longer pay $200,000 a year for dev-ops, you can no longer bring your dog to work. And, yes, we still have management that INSISTS if they can't see you in the chair, you must be scheming with a competitor. The jobs are there, but folks, we call it work, for a reason. If it were fun, we'd call it play. Mind you, I would completely understand anyone who said "I don't want that lifestyle anymore -- it was killing me!" But when you say that, you also say I don't want the paycheck. Decide what you will put up and what you won't put up with. I need medical coverage from a company that will be there, so I make my peace with the choices. I'm well paid, and well covered, but there is a price. Also, when you do shop around, remember, you know what you're worth -- both on the high and low end. Everyone talks about not selling out for a low salary -- but be careful. If someone is willing to pay you substantially more than you're used to, either you'd had a problem for years you didn't know about, or, why is everyone else refusing this job... And, as a final note, it's always easier to get a new job when you have one, so don't turn away what I call the "temporary job". I knew someone who was unemployed at the time -- and we had an open position that paid about $130K. He informed me "I will not work for people who do not value me and pay me at least $147K!" Now why it was $147K, as opposed to $150K, I have no idea, and at the moment, he was making nothing. So I don't understand. When I joined this company, I took a 30% cut. I wasn't happy about it, but a 30% cut is better than a 100% cut. (See I did pay attention in math class!) However, getting back into the workforce let me meet people again, and by blessed circumstances, meet people who moved me up over 20 years such that I've made back far more than I lost.

Temp jobs are necessary at times but also can be a trap that covers you like a warm blanket blinding you from what your value is in the marketplace. Taking the first offer because the interview process is horrible is the easy route many of us take. Passing up lower valued offers probably means you are misreading the market or applying in the wrong market.

Oh, agreed -- I am not suggesting one take the first job. I went through six months of interviews before taking this particular job. I am only saying, don't discard all jobs because they are not the job. Be open to new avenues. I didn't take the job at a bank for example, because, first or not, it wasn't a fit at all.

If you're in the Bay Area, just grind leetcode and CTCI-like books for max FAANG life. You don't need all those other things if all you want is a software engineering job. Once you have then developed confidence that you can just replicate it when you need, you can do the other things.

Side projects and leetcode will take you further when you secure interviews.

One thing you didn’t mention is your resume. Are you writing the right thing when applying? Saying you’ve worked on bug fixing most of the time is a great skill but needs to be communicated differently.

Something like:

A team player with long experience improving legacy code bases and maintaining projects with little guidance.

Working with different languages is fantastic too, ensure having example for each but in your resume intro (objectives), focus on your highest skill and make keywords related to the job description in bold. Recruiters spend only 6 seconds skimming resumes so make sure to give them a reason to stop and read.

Make your LinkedIn profile up to date, populate all your skills and your work history.

Good luck!

Try being an (old school) sysadmin / platform / DevOps person that doesn't have terraform/ansible/python skills. Never needed it, always been overkill, and every single job wants it in the space now.

I've made my own homegrown ansible type tools and everything else under the sun. But grown organically and not requiring learning a different DSL.

I've worked in the industry so long everything recommends "senior" level to me, which I am eventually in each job I'm at, except I don't have a those two skills that everyone apparently requires, which makes it real weird finding anything.

You should be able to find a lot of SWE jobs with your languages. Those are pretty solid.

Also, with those 3 languages try to find open source projects looking for bug fixes and such. That'd make for a solid portfolio!

You should learn ansible though, it's pretty transferable and works very well for non-cloud stuff too (in fact that's what it was created for!) It's pretty easy to use if you know shell. It might actually make your job easier.

Yeah I know. The best way I learn is to work a specific problem and/or be able to look at something already working.

Instead of leetcode, I would try doing actual small jobs on upwork.com

First, it will earn you some additional money. But much more importantly, after a while you can confidently state that you have experience solving issues that companies are willing to pay for. And that's what hiring managers like to see/hear.

Just keep in mind that the non-US competition on most of those remote job sites is pretty fierce. Expect to be slightly underpaid. That said, once you get the hang of it, applying to an actual in-office job is probably easier than negotiating a well-paid fully remote Upwork project. So it will be great training for your written negotiation skills.

i am doing neither, because i find the effort i need to put in to find work is already taking all the time i have available, and the effort of applying for small jobs on upwork is not in line with the payout. if i have to spend 20 hours to get a 20 hour job for 50$ per hour, then my effective pay is 25$ per hour. i can't live on that.

build a website for yourself

pretend to be confident

remember companies hire techies to solve problems. be a solution

and long term, build something. sometimes its easier to just go make money on the internet than to make it thru these overbaked interview processes

I’d agree with the idea of just trying to build something in public, and ideally something people might use. Or which you yourself would use. It at least demonstrates competence and drive and at best could become something bigger.

If you have an established career in software, for heaven’s sake don’t leave unless you actually want to.

Even if you have been away from work for a bit, you’ve still got marketable skills. And people go on sabbatical all the time. 10 months really isn’t a big deal (IMO), though I don’t doubt that it feels like it.

Don’t give up. You’ll find another position. If you search for a bit and aren’t finding what you want, frame shift a bit (different compensation, different location, environment, etc)

Honestly open source projects such that you can point to work you did without requiring an interview is super effective.

I'm honestly unconvinced leetcode practice is useful, there's a significant misunderstanding on coding interviews (google, apple, MS-to-an-extent ask questions I've seen labeled "leet code" but generally as a result of people not understanding the goal of such questions). Companies that are doing "real" leetcode questions in the sense of "could produce a solution for this specific weird question? yes/no" are probably not something you'd want to work for in the long term, and general "make sure you can explain what you are doing while writing code, make sure you can come up with test cases, make sure you can come up with solution trade offs" practice will work for leetcode, and be more useful to less questionable companies.

One other big thing is to try to tailor your CV/resume to each job you apply to. For mass application that isn't really feasible, but if you're only applying to 5-20 a little tailoring of your resume to each position (in the order of a couple of sentences on your background and specialities) is helpful. Your CV should also be as short as possible, no more than two pages, ideally one. Don't include irrelevant prior jobs, if you've been working more than a couple of years the jobs are more important than your degrees if you have them, and your school grades do not matter. Of what you keep, prioritize the jobs and qualifications relevant to the specific job. e.g. if the job you're applying to is primarily C++ your CV should put more emphasis on your C++ experience than the JS ones, etc.

Are you good at what you do? Do you have a public profile? While you're wait build a profile fixing bugs in open source products.

If you have the funds, build something you’ve always wanted to build, from there the path forwards will be clear.

Right now you’re paralysed.

I'm the S bay, ping me if you wanna meetup. I quit from AMZN in 2019 and have not worked since however, I do have a "full-time" job as a dad ;) But I'm itching to do something, particularly for myself. Corp jobs are a rat race I no longer wanna be part of.

Go to the coffee shops, do that stuff on your laptop, and casually talk to people. Best areas are Mountain View and Palo Alto downtown, and SF financial district. Also, Palo Alto libraries are fantastic but are mostly residents rather than startup and business people. Tech meetups too. Go, go, go. :@]

I am not hiring, but might be able to help with some other parts. DM me if you want to talk.

The National Labs are hiring https://nationallabs.org/work-here/careers/

What scares me about this thread is it seems remote work even for devs is much harder these days if you have to be in the bay area and then still struggle.

Bay Area with your exp should be easy. Might take time but you will definitely find it .

If it helps I just switched jobs and job market is not as bad as it looks

if you enjoy finding & fixing bugs, you might enjoy bug bounties! try hacker one! https://www.hackerone.com/

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