UK court allows ANN patent saying computer programs exclusion does not apply
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Is a summary that, because the ANN could be implemented in hardware, it is not necessarily strictly software, and therefore patentable?
Edit: There's a more digestible summary here: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/examination-of-pa...
> 8. The judgment notes that an ANN may be implemented in hardware, for example a physical box with electronics in it (see [14]), or in software where the ANN exists as a computer emulation, for example where a conventional computer runs a piece of software which enables the computer to emulate the hardware ANN (see [18]).
> 9. The judgment compares hardware and software implementations of an ANN (see [32]-[62]). For hardware implementations, the judgment notes there is no program to which the program exclusion of s.1(2)(c) can apply (see [43]). For software implementations, the judgment holds it is appropriate to look at the emulated ANN as, in substance, operating in the same way as the hardware ANN it emulates. If the hardware ANN is not operating as a program, then neither is the emulated ANN (see [56]).
> 10. Thus, *the judgment concludes an emulated ANN is not a program for a computer* (see [58]). As a matter of construction, the claimed invention is not a computer program at all (see [61]). So, the computer program exclusion is not invoked by the claimed invention ([61]).
Puzzling argument. This logic can apply to every single computer program (i.e. it can be implemented in hardware), which means the exclusion will never apply, which means the judge's reasoning is wrong.
I've no problem burning some karma on this one, the "BUSINESS AND PROPERTY COURTS OF ENGLAND AND WALES" are basically a shop to "buy a judgement" from somewhere sounding authentic. Absolute scam.
To whoever "won" the appeal, well done, you have a software patent, "good luck"; in his opening article he even points out to you in his opening statement this can't be applied to program for a computer. Money well spent eh.
This is complete nonsense, but not surprising because the judge probably has no idea what a program is. In France, a few years ago, when discussing the matter of Web cookies, some authority described cookies as “little programs” ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
> The judgment accepts an argument that moving data outside the computer system, in the form of a file that is transferred, provides an external (outside world) technical effect.
> When coupled with the purpose and method of selecting the file’s contents, this fulfils the requirement for a technical effect which avoids the computer program exclusion.
Sounds like these sorts of "decision matrix"-type ANNs are going to now be patentable if there is some kind of application of "special sauce" that can be used to select files or some other external component.
The Comptroller-General of Patents has an awesome job title and, imho, was right on this (and the judge is wrong).
Turn off the machine and show me the circuit? It is not there. It should be copyrightable... But since created by machine, it should not be. Scrooge should come early for them. I shall argue on.
- literally implement ANN in hardware
- patent it
- someone emulates your patented design in software (or even hardware of some parts slightly abstracted to make "emulation" of your patent fast).
What happens now? Either all emulatable hardware patents are useless, or there's a backdoor into software patents (synthetically put it in hardware first).
I can't follow the train of thought.
The only kind of software I can imagine that (probably) is not implementable in hardware are uncomputable algorithms such as a halting problem solver.
In other words, it is the learned and wise decision of the honored judiciary that the entire sentence excluding computer programs is there just for decoration. Like flavor text on a Magic card. As a layperson I naturally defer to their expert judgement.
It used to be a language called verilog. (According to wikipedia based on ADA, pascal,C and Fortran)
12. The judgment accepts an argument that moving data outside the computer system, in the form of a file that is transferred, provides an external (outside world) technical effect (see [73]-[74]). When coupled with the purpose and method of selecting the file’s contents, this fulfills the requirement for a technical effect which avoids the computer program exclusion (see [76]).
13. The judgment further holds that a trained hardware ANN is capable of being an external technical effect which prevents the computer program exclusion from applying (see [78]). The judgment holds there ought to be no difference between a hardware ANN and an emulated ANN in this respect.
If I am not mistaken (though there is a good chance I am), the judge could have made a narrow judgement in favor of the plaintiff on the basis of point 12 alone. Inventions that use a suitably-programmed computer in a process that produces an "external technical effect" are not prima facie ruled out (though they do have to satisfy a requirement of sufficiency of description, which, as the judge noted in his opening remarks, is not being ruled on here, together with (I think) non-obvious novelty and utility)
Point 13 may have much broader implications, as it asserts that any trained software ANN is, in itself, an "external technical effect", and presumably patentable if it satisfies other requirements such as sufficiency.
The first issue with this is, as you and others have pointed out, that the justification given for this claim (the possibility of a functionally-equivalent implementation in hardware) works equally well for any computer program - ANN programs are not different in this regard. If followed to its logical conclusion, this principle would seem to completely nullify the "program for a computer" exclusion.
A second point that might be made here is that the difference between a trained ANN (whether implemented in software or hardware), and itself in its untrained state, are data - specifically, the weights. This might imply that the intellectual property issue here is a matter of copyright, not invention.
Finally, and perhaps most broadly, if a trained ANN is, in itself, an "external technical effect", does that open the door to the patenting of ANN training methods? (Maybe they already are?)
I hope there’s still the possibility of appeal and this bad judgement is reversed.
Sounds fair to me. If the actual invention claim is patentable is another story though, it's just that being implemented in code doesn't make it a computer program automatically.
So therefore the inventor is a computer? I thought that was settled already.
I am not a lawyer, but if I recall correctly there are three types of law : statute (what parliament legislates), common law (that which has built up over the centuries as "just the way we expect the law to work" and precedent ("this was unclear at one point but courts down the years have been convinced that what it means is x"). Appeals are usually on the basis that the court has misunderstood or misapplied the law and the outcome of these appeals form the precedents for future cases.
But you are right —- it is not. I would object to someone saying the government can’t move faster and not break things, however.
This case is an appeal; if a judge in an appeal case interprets the law in a particular way, that sets a precedent that should be followed by judges in lower courts, if the circumstances are similar. That's not "making law"; laws here are written to be interpreted by judges, because that's how it works.
If you're curious, I understand it can be an okay introduction into the field of music recommending. It as about as easy to read as such patents can be, since I wasn't smart enough to do any work near as complex as the stuff you machine learning folks do these days. A friend of mine called it "toothpick AI" back in the day (it issued in 1995.) Have a look here:
https://patents.google.com/patent/US5749081A
Here's my own website about the patent and the adventure. Someday I need to add something there, about how I could do anything as dumb as let Microsoft be the owner of it. It's a long story, which I could elaborate on if anyone is interested. Anyway:
https://www.whiteis.com/patents-overview
I would always enjoy discussing it with anyone, get in touch!
> I decry the current tendency to seek patents on algorithms. [...] There are better ways to earn a living than to prevent other people from making use of one's contributions to computer science.
The Art of Computer Programming, Volume III ( via https://lwn.net/Articles/132926/ )
At the end of the startup, there was a 20 minute phone call, where I had to decide to either keep my patent and probably ruin my chances to marry the love of my life, or to sign over the patent, take some cash and stock, start my new life with my fiancé, and hope that I could come up with another patent that good later in my life. I chose wisely.
What's more important is if you're doing something good with whatever gains a patent may be providing you; but I also what detriment there may be and how much in fact your patent (and others) actually suffocate and slow the advancement of humanity and the quality of life for all.
But if that's your baseline, can I come with a Colt and shoot you in the back? "If I had been Agnus McVee..."
And BTW, James Marshall died penniless in a hut. The gold rush destroyed his business (a mill) and he never found gold again.
1. You're basically patenting algorithms, which aren't supposed to be patentable.
2. There seems to be an assumption that anything new is unobvious and therefore patentable. And in computing that isn't really the case.
I have no programming training but still independently invented lz compression. Something that is deemed patent worthy.
3. A patent is supposed to describe how to actually do the thing. Software patents by and large don't do that.
2. Again, why is that different for hardware?
I really wonder why my friends who studied mechanical engineering have the privilege of making money with their inventions, while I cannot ...
A piece of hardware designed with a ruler and protractor is indistinguishable from one designed on a computer.
Re 2. If you 'invented' some trading cards based on HN members. That would be new in the sense that it's never been done before. But that doesn't make it patentable. We all have a sense that that's just an obvious iteration on a theme. But trading cards based on HN members, on a computer somehow becomes patentable.
You can make money from your invention. There's still copyright. If you want to take an algorithm and turn it into an actual product, provide an implementation then I'm not averse to patenting.
Currently we're in a situation where you could come up with the idea of listening to music 'on a computer' patent that very broad, basic thing. Without putting any work into an actual implementation.
That isn't an invention, it's just an idea.
Maybe that should be the requirement then, instead of saying "software patents cannot exist, but hardware patents can".
Hardware patents just cover algorithms that have steps involving arranging atoms.
>2. There seems to be an assumption that anything new is unobvious and therefore patentable. And in computing that isn't really the case.
It isn't really the case in anything. That no one has bothered to patent yellow wrenches with beveled edges doesn't mean they should be patentable. That the software equivalent is currently more likely to be granted isn't really an issue with the idea of patenting software.
>A patent is supposed to describe how to actually do the thing. Software patents by and large don't do that.
That's an issue with particular software patents, not one particular to patenting software.
Yes. Further steps have been done. Its the difference between copywriting the idea for a book, and copywriting an actual book.
>That the software equivalent is currently more likely to be granted isn't really an issue with the idea of patenting software
It's an issue with the current incarnation of software patents.
That's like saying IC cars aren't bad for the environment because we 'could' fuel them all with biofuels and have a carbon capture thing on the exhaust.
In the real world an IC car can rightfully be criticised for being bad for the environment.
>That's an issue with particular software patents, not one particular to patenting software.
Again, the issue doesn't have to be inherent to be valid.
Only if by "idea for a book" you mean "comprehensive description sufficient to exactly reproduce the book".
>It's an issue with the current incarnation of software patents.
No, it's an issue with the patent office's current process for approving patents.
>In the real world an IC car can rightfully be criticised for being bad for the environment.
Yes, but that doesn't mean a car is worse than a truck.
Potato potahto.
>Yes, but that doesn't mean a car is worse than a truck.
Is the truck a metaphor for hardware patents?
That depends if the trucks actually do run on bio diesel and have a full carbon capture and particulate filter fitted.
If you'd please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and stick to the rules when posting here, we'd appreciate it.
Edit: although you haven't been posting often, your previous two comments also broke the site guidelines:
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37714505 (Sept 2023)
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35166528 (March 2023)
We have to ban accounts that post like this, and I don't want to ban you, so if you'd please fix this that would be good.
"BUSINESS AND PROPERTY COURTS OF ENGLAND AND WALES"
These guys are some absolute jokers, really not worth taking any of their decisions seriously.
None of their decisions are enforceable even inside the UK, its basically just a pit to give employment to washed out lawyers who are friends of whoever.
UK legal system has gone the same way as their healthcare system.